You are toooooo kind to say this.... and I feel quite the same !! It is strange how life brings us together !! Thank you for sharing this experience with me and validating me in that way. One day there will be others who will join our little club of healing and forgiveness !!

One day I was riding and saw a church sign that said... hatred corrodes the vessle in which it is contained.

It blew me away and it stays with me untill this very day. I try to hold the lesson and let go of the pain. Sometimes it is just hard to accept and that is what holds me back. I know , like you said, one day it'll be gone :) that gives me hope and hope is everything !! Thank you soo much !!

f1~

FORGIVENESS

Forgiveness is not something to force on people
like unwanted coffee.
It is only appropriate to forgive people who ask
for forgiveness
And show with their behavior that they want it.

It is never appropriate to shove forgiveness on people
who haven't asked
And show no signs of wanting it
or demonstrate just the opposite.

It's been said, forgiving was to help you feel better.
It doesn't.
Letting go of resentments makes you feel better.
Making amends to the people you've hurt,
Cleaning up your side of the street makes you feel better.

Keeping an open mind and heart will make you ready
for the possibility of someone coming to make amends.
Forgiveness is a two way street.
Anything you have to throw over someone like a net
is usually a mistake.

LeftWriteFemme,

I agree with what you posted. Forgiveness is a two way street when it comes to minor situations. However, I have to disagree with your concept of forgiveness when it involves molestation/abuse. It is about me, and my future. Finding that place that is safe and sound for just me alone - mainly because of my faith.

Part of the Catholic Doctrines:
a. The Ten Commandments: #4 Honor Your Parents

b. The Seven Deadly Sins - Anger, Pride, Lust (pertaining to abuse as I see it)


c. The Works of Mercy - To comfort the afflicted

d. " - To forgive wrongs

e. " - To bear wrongs patiently

This is where I am coming from. I hope this makes sense.


Peace & Love,
Andrew

The Idea of forgiving doesnt mean forgetting.....its always hard for me to remember that forgiveness is for yourself so that you can have closure and release....

forgiving to me is a 1000 times harder than retribution because You have to do the actions so that you can feel better....

In South Africa and Rwanda, the Truth and Reconcilliation committees that were setup were for thier victims of violence, so that they could have the war criminals admit in open court thier crimes against humanity.....The World should take a lesson from that area of the world and maybe here in the USA if we did that with violent criminals maybe society would be better off?

One of the hardest lessons for me to learn was that forgiving yourself, others, or asking for forgiveness does not undo any of the wrongs that were committed, intentional or not.

Like most have said, I too find it very hard to forgive myself for the things I have done. But if I can not find a way to move past them how can I learn from them? There have been times when I did not learn all there was to learn and wouldn't you know, I would make the same mistake again. That is when it gets really hard for me to forgive myself but I know I have to try!

I have forgiven others for actions that I will never understand, (some things are beyond reason) but as I found out recently I still carry the memories and emotions with me. I wonder if there is still more for me to learn?

Finally, asking for forgiveness is never easy! As the years pass, I have learned that it takes a much stronger person to look someone in the eye and say "I was wrong." and ask for forgiveness than to pretend I did nothing wrong or trying to find the closest rock to hide under. Humility is a hard lesson to learn!

I do believe some things are unforgivable and hope I never have to experience them myself in order to know if this belief is valid!

I think we all pretty much agree then that we can forgive others, but we never forget what was done to us. It is self-love to do that. Getting to that point is not easy. Not by a long shot.

For those who suffered child abuse/molestation, neglect, etc. it is a bit different than someone belittling you because you don't fit in the click. It takes time and patience to forgive the abuser & yourself in that situation.

Just my 2 cents worth for now.

Andrew

Forgiveness is something that took me years to realize the spirit & internal value of. It is for my own benefit and growth. Pettiness or not recognizing how self-destructive anger can be can cost far more than I am willing to pay in this life.

I can be stubborn, yet, when I forgive and engage in repairative dialogue, I feel much more centered. Sometimes, it takes me awhile to get here, but I know it is the best path to take. Now, sometimes, the person(s) that I need to forgive and talk with, may not want to be engaged in this. But, I can't control this. I can only hold some faith in time as a healer.

:wateringgarden: Can't have a garden without nurturing and tending to it! So goes mutual forgiveness and relationship building...

AtLastHome,

You hit the nail on the head. I too have tried to make ammends with people who I think I hurt in the past. Some have been willing to talk it thru, and others are not so kind. In turn we have no relationship. It's sad because I view life as being so short. And when I do engage in forgiveness, it is self-centering. It is rewarding and really is golden.

When my sister was dying, I told her before she died, the last conversation I ever had with her, how much I loved her. And during her funeral all I could think about is how many times I missed telling her that, or bringing her flowers from my garden. All the missed opportunities I had. She loved me unconditionally even with all of my quirks. :twitch:

Forgiveness is all about love. Love of self, and love of another human being.

forgiveness accepts another kind of passion too, when it can sometimes go way out in the water [exhaustion, trying to be understood, meltdowns, illness, frustrations galore]- imperfections of human nature, as much as the obvious blunders-

my thoughts -

:flying:

Interesting thoughts on forgiveness here. Some I haven't thought about. Makes sense that you'd not entertain the idea of forgiving someone unless they asked for it. But rather let go of the resentments and sweep ya own porch is about all you really can do sometimes. Especially since much of the time someone doesn't even acknowledge that anything has been done to be forgiven for.

I find it hard to forgive for things or actions I don't understand. Understanding has a lot to do with communication and many don't know how to communicate. They hear but they don't listen.

Humility and being humbled, IS a hard lesson to learn. I think sometimes we may hurt someone and not even realize it, or not realize it at the time,therefore don't ask for forgiveness. Then perhaps we have relinquished our possibility to have any type of relationship with the person involved.

Forgiveness is a tough issue form me.

I am not even sure what it is.

I get someone doing something bad, apologizing and being forgiven. That is easy, no matter how bad things were.

What I am trying to learn to do is forgive when no regret, apology or even acknowledgment of wrong exists. When I can't even remember all that happened. When thinking about it at all nauseates me.

Thank you for the tread and the discussion. I will be back :).

I just wanted to post a section of the OP......it's so powerful.....and timely.

I am interested in forgiveness being a trainable skill. I would love to train myself to forgive.

Don't get me wrong, anyone who has ever asked me for forgiveness has gotten it...in general I would say I am a very forgiving person. And I am not talking about smallslights... I am trying to learn to forgive someone who gaslighted me all my life and is no longer around.

People say so many things about how I have to just let it go, and I have no idea how.

Yes, I am in therapy.

This is a tough one.

For me, the crux is forgiving when it hasn't been asked for - when the offender may not have a bloody clue as to the impact of the words, the actions, the inactions or nonwords.

I think that when we don't freely forgive these "trespasses" that we wind up just bottling that hurt up inside and I do think, as others have wisely stated here, that WE are the ones suffering for it. We stuff that hurt, anger and betrayal down and the negativity usually manifests in our health or in our interactions with the world.

Sometimes, when I can't just seem to "get over it", I put it on paper. I write a letter as if I were going to send it to that person. Once its on paper (or in Word) I get rid of it. I've been known to burn the actual paper (not to be confused with setting an ex's stuff on fire at the edge of her yard. Enough bourbon and it SOUNDED like a good idea - but that is another thread about the follies of youth). If I typed it out on the PC, I delete it.

Its symbolic for me in that I am making that decision to be done with it - either in the pressing of the delete key or by striking that match.

I've also been known to ask for a cathartic "scene". Its been quite a while since I've needed that level of purging of the negative energy, but who knows, maybe its something I need.

I'm sure others have their own ways in letting go. I'd be interested to hear them.

((((((((((((((((jen)))))))))))))) I've missed you posting!

Christie

Actually my therapist mentioned having some sort of ceremonial burning of something. Maybe a letter is the way to go?

I sent him (My father) a letter 12 years ago stating how I felt and demanding that I be treated with respect....We never spoke again.

Maybe I will start writing how I feel about the whole thing, then burn the letter with tons of sage or something. I had no idea what to burn, thank you so much.

For my sister the cremation was enough, somehow I need more. :) Man am I high maintenance!
Hey that made me laugh...cool!

eeek a little...
 

perhaps for me it's semantics...I don't have, for myself, a goal of 'forgiveness'...my goal is for 'acceptance'...what happened, what choices (or compulsions) were meted out is what happened...I think that it's my way of letting go of wishing things had not happened...or trying to figure out what (and it's almost always nothing) I could have done to prevent events, or what I might have 'done' to cause them...

I am, often to my detriment, able to really Understand why people do harm to others...how their own injuries drive them to act out in the ways they do, etc...I also know that someone with the same kinds of woundings can choose Not to impose harm on others...(that is simplistic I know)...

my challenge is just accepting the truth of things...not getting stuck in wishing...not getting mired in self-pity...not giving up on struggling to move through the effects of being broken in ways which could keep me paralyzed...I find that when I am able to look at things and not have an immediate reaction which leads to self-destructive impulses, I have achieved a freedom from the past and move in the present and into the future empowered...

as for forgetting....I never forget, and I don't want to...all the experiences of my life are just that--all the pieces that make up the Whole of My Life...I strive to be able to remember by conscious choice and not by having tapes running on a loop...but I want to have the strength and grace to hold all the memories of my life...

that's what I work for and on and somehow forgiving just isn't the right fit for me, or what my internal filing system is all about...

n

Forgiveness is what I find after working my 4th and 5th step in recovery. Its something I do when I am finding myself really holding on to big hurts.

In the fourth step, for hose of you who are not familiar with the process, I write out my resentments. These are the things I am harboring grudges over. I write it out in a traditional “Big Book” way, with columns. One column for the person I resent, one for why I resent, one column for my part, and another for an affirmation or blessing for the situation.

In the fifth step I share this with another human, in my case, it’s my Sponsor who although not a licensed professional, he certainly knows this process well and is good at getting me to think. Im really blessed to have him in my life.

When it comes to Loves, and relationships, this is a part of what is the “sexual inventory”
By doing this enough, there are patterns of character defects in ME I get to see when I go through this process. I find that when ~ I'm~ really having a hard time letting go of a hurt, its because I personally am playing victim, I'm holding people up to my expectations, and/or I'm feeling quite entitled to an outcome I didn’t get.

Somehow, going through this process allows me to find forgiveness. For both myself and for the person I've written down in the first column.

I am finding that I can't forgive until I have forgiven myself. That is proving to be difficult.

I wonder if I am gaining anyting by rehashing. The details do not always match up, and I wonder what really happened. I wonder do I have to know what happened exactly to accept it?

Its usually easy for me to forgive, I just get stuck on family stuff.

Interesting post. Lot's to think about.

I think we are always harder on ourselves than on anyone else.
Sometimes, just becasue someone else thinks we failed them, does not mean we did.
Be easy on yourself Julie! :)