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Um me wearing make up is a choice it's not my gender. What happens if you're a femme who never wears make up does that mean you lack femme attributes? |
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And.... I didn't - and wouldn't - suggest your identity is abnormal. Anyone who knows me, knows I am the last person to do so - I am a Women & Gender Studies minor and am passionate about respecting others based on THEIR identity, not based on societal norms. |
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Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!! |
Gotcha!
Thanks for clarifying SMM:) (f)
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I see a pattern that happens fairly consistently on the forum, even among long time members, where we get into these topics of the nature mentioned above or where we talk about each others' identity, and a lot of people go on about it being the "masculinity" of the butch or "femininity" of the femme that attracts them. Or that they felt butch as a kid because they liked masculine things and feminine females, or femme because they liked feminine things and masculine females. Then another user, who doesn't fit the stereotype, comes along and calls bullshit. Or they come and say that they don't think such and such is tell-tale of being butch/femme, because they were different as a child. Then there's a tremendous amount of backpeddling and debating until we all agree once again that "masculinity" and "femininity" are subjective. Butch and femme are subjective. Etc. etc. It's a pretty distinct pattern/occurrence here and the fact that it keeps happening, I think, demonstrates that our community is able to accept certain concepts when they're explicitly stated, but that we fall back into our original assumptions and stereotypes about the dynamic as soon as they fade even slightly from sight. But it always requires that the people who don't fit the stereotype come back and perpetually reassert themselves. If they didn't, what would happen? As far as the international community outside this site, if we look at the recent split that occurred with Butch Voices over there in the states and the altering of language so that the conference encompassed "masculine of centre" individuals, again we see heavily weighted language. What is masculine? Who is masculine? Is the conference now for masculine femmes and not for feminine butches? I know that they've given their reasons, but there are a lot of underlying implications that go unaddressed in the greater community. If we look at even the literature on butch/femme, masculine female, transmale etc. identities both in the 90's and in the 2000s/present day, again, we see heavily weighted language that relies on masculinity and femininity. When it discusses butch/femme dynamics it still discusses masculine vs. feminine. Our communities around the world still reflect that, even if some of us have come to see it differently. It's really only literature that discusses butch or trans identities specifically (and only in some cases) that really start to ditch the terms masculinity and femininity and only navigate them as far as what they mean in the heteronormative world. The majority of modern literature that discusses the modern butch/femme dynamic still operates on the understanding of butch/femme as masculine/feminine. So I really don't think that's disappeared from our community. In fact, I think it's still pretty prevalent. That's my two cents, anyway. |
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Just for clarification... here's some of what *I* believe:
You can be born biologically female and ID as male and deserve to be respected as such (with or without medical intervention) and vice versa You can be male or female (biologically or not) and be butch, or femme, or masculine or androgynous - or any other label that works for YOU, or REFUSE to be labeled - regardless of what anyone else thinks or assumes You can be butch and wear make-up, wear anything that you choose - ANYTHING and still be butch and be respected as such. You can be femme and wear jeans and steel toe boots and t-shirts, or ANYTHING else you choose and still be femme and respected as such. You can be/do YOU - any way YOU choose, and not have to pick a label - just be YOU. If you are TG and don't want to take hormones, and don't want to have your breasts removed, you are no less TG. I believe everyone has the right to ID however they choose and say THIS is who I am - and not have to justify their identity to anyone. Period. |
Uhhh nobody here is giving you the third degree. I asked for clarification with a thank you in advance. I am not sure if more niceties are needed than that for a forum conversation. I am not sure if the victimology you are owning about your experience is fair considering I asked for clarification and gave a thank you in advance. It is a discussion for me, it is not about winning, it is about learning.
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You do make a good distinction, though, that definitely adds to the thread: butch or femme individuals vs. the butch/femme dynamic. Evidently one can come to shape the other (the individual and how the individual identity exists vs. how it exists within a relationship). Personally, using that distinction that you made, I think we might be at a point, as a community, where we tend to drop masculine/feminine assumptions moreso as far as individual butches and femmes (though we still have a lot of work to do, it seems, as far as dropping generalizations) who specifically state that they don't fit the stereotype, but that we maintain that rigidity more when it comes to defining the dynamic itself. As though somehow the huge individual diversity got detached from the dynamic. Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miss Tick Is that not the same as masculinity queered and femininity queered? Is that not what people mean when they speak of how hot they think masculinity in a female body is? Or how femmes queer femininity and find it so much more comfortable when it is in a queer context rather than in a heterosexual one? So what you mean is that defying the socially accepted categories of masculinity and femininity does not mean queering them but instead it means denying the existence of masculine and feminine at all in any content or context in queer identity or vocabulary? Have I got it yet? Quote:
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My post was a counter opinion to your post, not a reaction. I understand you don't believe in labels. I was trying to have a discussion about why people feel the need to construct "femme normatives/stereotypes" based around things like make up, dresses, high heels, and purses. It wasn't meant to be personal.
I just came back from a weekend where the "femme normative/stereotype" revolved around strength in numbers, being a femmes' femmes, and organizing(pulling off with grace) an event that rocked several lives and paved ground for future big things to happen. See here even my words don't do the variety of femmes, and the coalition of energy they produce justice. That is all I was saying. |
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So that means that when I'm looking at the question you posed above, I'm thinking something to the effect of: Yes, on the one hand "queering" masculinity and femininity serves an important purpose. Greater heteronormative western society still sees masculinity and femininity as very rigid and defined according to interests/characteristics and according to assigned sex at birth. Those categories need to be broken, and one way to do that is to make them limitless, and to push society to perceive them as limitless and encompassing of anyone who wishes to adopt them. Similarly, it can be important to possess masculinity and femininity as queer. This allows us to see that masculinity and femininity in the current form that we understand them in the western world is derived from a certain period in Greco-Roman history, which was slightly altered but largely maintained throughout the subsequent periods in history. It allows us to insert ourselves into a history that denied or looked down upon those who did not properly fit these categories. It does not insert modern queers into that history, but it takes into account that deviation has always existed and that history and language were largely written by those who did not deviate, or strove to maintain a certain norm. On the other hand, there is still that lingering history mentioned above. As much as I have embraced the above two modes of thinking in the past and part of me still wants to, I still see logical opposition to it. I think that using these terms or taking them for our own still presupposes an original. So in that respect, no I am not denying the existence of masculine and feminine in a queer context, because that would require that masculine and feminine in the queer context be completely uniform...which was part of my original argument: that masculine and feminine are not uniform. However, what I am saying is that's it's worth considering that other words come to be used (simply butch and femme, for example, as I suggested earlier) in order to describe how exactly a butch is butch, and a femme is femme. It's impossible for me to singlehandedly deny that masculine and feminine exist in any queer context. But I do still think there is a presupposition of a heteronormative original (which there is, given the origins of the words) even when we say that we "queer" these two terms. Like: "it was theirs, but now its ours." But that means that the "ours" did not exist before or at the same time as the creation of the "theirs." Which is incorrect, imo. It's just that language did not take it into account, and so I think we should strengthen our own language. |
I am a butch woman who fully embraces my masculinity (and no I don't have a precise definition for that, but it is very much a part of who I am). My relationship with my femme partner is very much a yin-yang, butch femme dance based on the contrasting energies of masculinity and femininity. It works for us. Of course that isn't the sole reason for our mutual attraction, but it certainly is a major piece.
I don't see how doing away with the terms masculine and feminine or coming up with firm definitions of what those terms meant would improve anything. I am confused. Then people will want precise definitions of what butch and femme mean. My masculinity is not based on any heteronormative standards at all. I have had both female and male role models throughout my life. The way I present, carry myself and my inner sense of self comes from both. Masculine does not equal male- that's been my rallying cry at online butch femme sites for over a decade. I will not be defined by heteronormative or male standards (although I do support my trans and butch brothers who do identify as male). Masculinity does not equal male. Not in queer circles it doesn't. I believe that women who claim masculinity as part of themselves expand the possibilities of what women are and can be and that is very liberating to me. |
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