For the Love of Intentions!!
 

Okay...once upon a time I was new here and I started a thread (which shall remain nameless) asking what I believed to be an innocent question. Some saw this thread as an opportunity to start a dialogue while others treated my thread with all the delicacy of a hungry lion attacking a gazelle.

Anyway, as I spend more time on this site, I notice other newbies falling into this same situation. A new person joins the board. A question is asked. It is quite obvious (at least to me) that the intention is to receive knowledge about a subject or get a different perspective. There is nothing in the thread to indicate this new person is trying to be a provocateur.

Almost immediately, one or two of the responses are "Oh, you're in for an education about [insert topic here]." And then the "education" begins with the incredibly detailed picking apart of said question until it looks as though the intention was a purposeful yet thinly-veiled attack on lesbian/butch/femme/trans culture.

Why is that? Is it really just me or does nobody look at intention? Are we all just sitting up in the trees like vultures waiting for the first opportunity for somebody to step one toe out an imaginary line of so-called decorum? Are we that over-sensitive?

Being in the LBGT community already comes with enough doors being slammed in our faces for one reason or another. For some, boards like this are the last port in a storm for understanding and community.

Is there a reason we so easily and sometimes vehemently turn on each other?

I'd like to start an open discussion about this. Maybe unravel a few layers and go deeper into what could possibly be a much larger issue than what happens on this board.

This reminds me of something that my partner said the other day, i.e., that when you join a site like this one, you join with your own level of 'education', which in some cases, will be 'higher' than that of many others. Take U/us for example. He came out in the 70s when He was 17/18, whereas I didn't come out until 1999 when I was 40, so even in O/our case, we have a different level of 'education' when it comes to all things queer. (Example: it was only through watching a documentary on Disco the other night that I discovered - and remember here that I'm not from the States - that Disco was born in the States amongst the gay/black community. I'd never even thought of its origins before, never realized that Disco was initially some kind of political statement/movement.)

So I think that what happens is that in some cases, we - the collective we - respond in not so nice/patient a manner one, because we've simply lost sight of the fact that we're all at different levels in terms of our 'education', or two, because we're simply bored with answering the same questions/discussing the same topics over and over again. I certainly know from personal experience that the more I'm 'around' the Planet, the harder it is to find threads that interest me because in a lot of cases, they deal with issues that have already been discussed to death, either here or elsewhere. However, I am aware of the fact that for a lot of other people, these are new topics and threads from which they can learn something so I basically have two choices, one, to find other ways to amuse/stimulate myself (easy option), or two, to open discussions relating to topics that to me, are still valid/important/interesting (slightly harder option). What isn't an option for me is to expect someone else do do the work (just like you've done here).

Hope that makes sense.

Words

I think people challenge ideas not the people posting the ideas. Everybody has a reaction, some will challenge back, some will golden flounce, some will retreat and never be heard from again, some will hold on to it for a long, long time, and some will deflect defensively and take it personally.

I don't think people get attacked, and I certainly don't think it is worthy of painting it in such a manner that it depicts community members like animals. We all end up in the hot seat, including me. Anybody remember the tap thread? I felt many things but never once thought I was being attacked. When people post words like "attacked", "bullied", "clique", "piled" on I tend to tune out due to the self victimization that coils around that pattern. If posts continually insinuate racist, sexist, sizeist, or any isms, I may or may not, but probably will, question intent.

If assuming a posters intent behind an idea is not ok then why is it ok to assume what space a poster is posting from?? Are you on the other side of the computer with them? Do you speak to them in real time and know what emotional space they are posting from? General you!!!

Everything you said made perfect sense to me except for the sentence I quoted. Others to do "the work"? How does this thread ask anyone to do "work" for me?

My intention in starting this post is to figure out what it is about certain posts that trigger what looks like an attack or a written "rolling-of-eyes" so-to-speak.

I think what Words and girl_dee said does answer the question quite well (or part of it anyway).

The reason for the behavior I mentioned above is, from what I understand:

• Honest belief that someone is trying to start an arguement.
• The question has been done to death.
• Based on the life experience of the reader, the words written are genuinely offensive.

Okay, that clears things up a bit. Maybe some could just try to be more aware (as Words suggested) that everyone is at their own different level of education. Perhaps, instead of looking things up online, they need interaction and community to learn. Everybody learns differently and everybody has a different life experience.

As far as comparing people to animals, that's not literal. Of course I don't think anyone here is an actual vulture. It's an analogy. Vultures pick things apart in a rather painful way. I was painting a picture with words. I'm a writer. That's how my brain works. It wasn't meant to be offensive but to give perspective to how someone on the other end of some of these less-than-welcoming responses might feel.

I'm off for the weekend so I won't be able to check this thread but I hope the discussion continues. Maybe it will prompt a deeper look within for some to find out just where some of those 'hair-triggers' might be coming from. I'm no saint and am quite guilty of going off on people if they push my buttons. Because of that, I'm always looking within so I don't end up in that dreaded victim mentality.

SO sorry, I see now that I wasn't clear.

What I meant was, ''What isn't an option for me is to expect someone else do do the work (just like YOU'VE done the work here). In other words, I was commending, not criticizing.

Make sense now?

Words

Girl_On_Fire,

"Doing the work", means a person working through their privileges, isms, etc.

Not in this context it doesn't (see my post above).

Thanks:)

Sorry, Words. I should have kept my nose out of it. :blush:

Ohhh the Tap thread, long time ago but yes i remember.

For me when it happens to me, and more so when i was new to the forums, it felt like a personal attack to *me*. i am glad to know that's not true for some others. Hey i'm not saying i didn't learn anything, but the process felt harsh to me.

One thing that is missing from the written word is tone. It's hard to read tone and i admit that i am one that takes things personal. My words sometimes don't reflect my feelings/thoughts. Once i meet someone we can read each other completely different on the forums.

If something i said is up for challenge, it feels personal to me. i am working on this. i want to assume the person has a good intention, instead i am guilty of taking it personal and getting defensive. Character flaw. .

:yeahthat:

Well stated. Thanks.

I love the thread, thanks for starting it. I agree , and have seen it happen many times. You ask alot of good questions, that I myself would be interested in knowing the answers to.

This really resonates with me. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, Diva. I had to re-read it a couple of times in order to put my finger on something that at first puzzled me. That being the portion I high lighted in blue.

Sometimes it's as if I feel the need to draw a very permanent line in the sand, one that I either stand on one side of or the other (no straddling allowed) and I end up losing sight of precisely what Diva stated. Neither is right or wrong, yet both are true to the individual.

Perhaps what it boils down to for many of us is trigger issues. I know certain topics absolutely push my buttons faster and stronger than others, and I can jump down someone's throat quicker than the time it would take to put a well thought-out, cohesive statement together.

I dare say that if we don't give this issue some careful attention, it could very well be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

This is a really interesting thread. I was not sure what GoF was referring to at first and so I went back to see the threads she had started. Yes I can see what she is saying.

I also went back to the old Dash site and looked up my old posts!! Wow was that fun, hilarious, cringe worthy and instructive. I got piled on regularly there. Because I tend to be clueless sometimes the piling did not register with me and I doggedly kept going. I learned a lot from that piling. In some cases I learned that the people I was talking with did not care what my intentions were or just plain did not like them. What do you do then? The Diva referred to this in that there is no right or wrong. That seems to be the way forward.

I do not tend to take piling personally. I know that is not the case for everyone. I am not special or better in that way. It is just how I am, especially here and in writing. Had I been piled on in person I think I would feel very differently.

Does anyone else feel ok with being piled on? Or asked to "do the work"? Is that a bad thing? Is it ok when someone has been around awhile or not? How can others feel comfortable posting but still engage in conversation? By conversation I mean that others might disagree or maybe even not be nice.

I think this conversation goes well beyond this site to include all other social media and face-to-face conversations.

Thank you for starting the the thread GoF!

*beams* Just got back from my weekend away and am so happy to see how this thread is turning out. I think we've got a great discussion going on here!

:D

It is funny because I don't see it as a person getting on a soapbox when they are trying to communicate to someone about a written offense. For me, when a person comes into a space and pontificates or even insinuates something offensive I see them as the person standing on the soapbox and being judgemental. It is not logical to me to blame the person that is having to call out another person on an ism and insinuate they have some "trigger" that makes them behave in a manner that makes a person feel "pummeled". I happen to be one of those people that has been accused of that and I can say that it is an unfair It doesn't warrant bullying inside this venue or outside this venue.

For me the camel, straw, back breaking moment is going to be that one time I decide not to call out someone's ism and it goes totally ignored by my other community members, or better yet thanked by fellow community members. I deal with all that yucky stuff in my life at work and my recreational time when out and about. I am pretty direct in most situations even when I am dealing with a client. I am direct here and am not a person that is going to lighten that up in my words because that is not me. Honestly, I feel pretty unwelcome here for reasons that exist outside this venue.

I generally don't want to think people have bad intentions behind the things they talk about. I also don't think people reacting to it have bad intentions either. I also realize how much work our community needs to do surrounding all the ism's and continue to have that fact reinforced everyday. Focusing on that is just as important as policing the posting styles of our community members and trying to assign them some sort of deficit for reacting to something negative.

I have so many thoughts around this.

Couple of things: Does dogpiling happen? Yep. Do folks sometimes say stupid shit and then get all defensive about it when people call them out on it? Yep.
Can we *all* do a better job of listening before we react? Yep.

A couple of things I have observed about perception in my years in this particular B/F/T community (going on 14 years now) is that 2 things seem to happen with regularity.

1. Someone says something stupid, gets called out on it, defends it, gets called out by more folks, defends it even more and messier, folks get pissed at one another, someone is a "bully", a member of a "clique", or a "gang", and before you know it, sides are taken and the whole thing is a hot mess.

2. Someone says something stupid, someone gets really pissed about it and calls them out in a shitty way, the person is truly sorry about it and owns that they should have thought about it more, the mad person won't let it go, sides get taken again and the whole thing is a hot mess.

The really frustrating thing that has happened in the past several times is that this has sometimes escalated to "The Space" somehow becoming responsible for what an individual said.

Who has the responsibility in a situation like this:

New member comes to the site, identifies as a Femme, starts a thread entitled "Where are all the rich Butches?!" and proceeds to post about how they are tired of encountering Butches who don't have jobs or live with their Momma.

What if someone feels like they are being really classist and says, "Hey, maybe money isn't the most important thing in the world! I think you are really missing out on some good people because you are being super classist about this and shallow"

Commence argument.

I think some of the frustration I have seen comes when folks seem unwilling to examine their privileges or narrow-minded idealism. This is not to say that folks don't get to have desires. I'm all for that! But what if their desire is couched in denigrating other people's ways of being?
(Thinking about how discussions on loving BBW Femmes often includes sizist anti-thin comments or how discussions about Butches often has commentary around "eeewwwwwwwww" for Butches who date other Butches)


There is another component here that I'd like to mention around intent. Some folks have been around a long, long time and have finely-honed bullshit detectors. I don't necessarily think it's a bad thing when folks call bullshit on a brand new person showing up on the site, getting super familiar with lots of folks, claiming to be a millionaire a doctor or a pilot, and having several different weird stories around their life that don't add up.

Why? Because it's happened 100 times.

So are some folks jaded? You bet your ass. :)