[Dylan]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

but it is a Butch Femme queer site which by it's very nature (nobody jump me I'm not saying "natural") is female and lesbian orientated and historical roots is based in women's history. That's just a reality and not someone's attempt trying to keep anybody out... I personally think we're a very open site.

You and I have disagreed on this before, and we'll continue to disagree on this. Butch-femme culture is NOT lesbian/female only. It never has been.

That said there aren't any men who aren't of a trans experience here (that I know of nor have I seen any before), not because it's law but because they don't feel any connection apparently. Perhaps this is part the reason a few femmes feel a connection to transmen and not other men. Maybe sometimes, it's really a lot simpler motive or what-ever when people make the distinction of transman rather than man... even just that some peeps be making things clearer for their own personal reasons b/c some might wonder why there's a man of non-trans experience on the site if they never mention he's of trans experience?

Firstly, I'm wondering why you're speaking for femmes. And this is something I often wonder. There are a number of femmes participating in this thread, and with the exception of Adorable, they've all laid into me at one time or another. I don't think they need you or Bulldog to protect them from me. IF a femme feels anyway, I'm sure she/he/per is quite able to speak up.

Secondly, I never said it was a 'just femme' thing or only femmes do this or that. It's been inferred and/or assumed by others that I said that, but I didn't. I've even clarified that two or three times so far.

Thirdly, part of the issue I'm having is WHY some people might wonder why there's a man on this site. AGAIN, WHY does a transman *have* to identify himself (or be identified by someone else) as TRANS? This is a QUEER community. QUEER doesn't mean 'women only'. BF doesn't mean 'women only'. There are queer men on this site. WHY is it so threatening (that people would 'wonder') why there's a man here? Following through with this line of reasoning...why is it 'safer' if it's a TRANSman as opposed to another man?

You just said, you don't know of any cismen on this site...so then, why do transmen ALWAYS have to ID as TRANS first?

Anyway I don't see why people in some instances seeing a difference whatever as that may be as their experience (though I don't agree with generalizations) as a big problem.

It's funny that a couple/few weeks ago, in the Men With Boobs thread when I stated I thought the conversation of what Cynthia Nixon had to say was not worth having, you came in and put me in my place about me weighing in on determining what is and isn't important to butches. I can pull the post if you want me to. You don't even know if I identify as butch or not, yet you felt compelled to tell me it wasn't MY place to determine what an important conversation is to butches.

Yet here you are determining what is and isn't a 'big problem' for transmen.

How does that work, Met? No one gets to speak for butches, and men don't get to speak for femmes, but met gets to speak for butches, transfolk, men, and femmes.

I've laid out what the problem is...but you want to defend people's right to erase others.

I've heard a couple transmen (agreed not many want anything to do with it) have expressed they feel they "get" women more, and they honor and value much of the part of their lives before transition, and I don't think that makes them any less as men... that may also be how some people view a difference between some transmen and men who aren't trans.

Great if some transmen feel that way. I certainly don't have a problem with that. What I have a problem with is people basing ALL of Transdom on what a 'couple' transmen have to say about how they feel.

[quote]Dylan more specifically to you.

Why do you care how other transmen and femmes run their relationships?
I don't...I've stated that plenty of times in this thread, and the thread that sparked this conversation

Or more specifically how they refer to each other (you keep commenting on what you see in other transmen's relationships), if the guy in question isn't having a problem with it why do you care?
I don't. I'm commenting in the same fashion that you're commenting on what you've experienced. And I'm wondering about some things. I wonder about a lot of things, Met. Again, I've stated that numerous times

Also you started this up with, transmen aren't some duality of genders and anymore sensitive than whatever, I agree most seem to feel that way... but to go on to drag all kinds of people into the mud, femmes who've experienced transman as more sensitive is inferring somehow they're not real men,

Um, I have no issue with One's PERSONAL experience. Again, I've stated that numerous times. If One has encountered sensitive transguys, fanfuckingtastic! Let the skies part and angels blow trumpets...yippee.

My problem lies (again, as I've stated about a bajillion times now), when those personally experienced attributes get chalked up to ALL transmen as though they're inherent characteristics. You know, just like you get a little pissy when someone says, "Butches are just men with boobs"

And yeah, when that generalization of (let's say) sensitivity gets linked to being a 'feminine/woman' trait, and transmen are then told that because it's a feminine/woman trait, it must link back to their special knowledge of women and being a woman, and now that men's IDs as men are erased, and they're referred to as 'two-spirited'...I have a problem with that. I just wanted to repeat it one more fucking time, because apparently typing it out 100 times isn't a good enough explanation. It's still going to get misconstrued. It's funny that you tell me I'm dragging all of this out and repeating it 100 times, yet it still seems you haven't even read it once.

And unless you think it's ok to say something like, "I see butches as male, because they're so masculine, and being masculine is a male thing"...I don't understand why this is so hard to grasp.

questioning the motives of couples who've referred to each other in a way that Dylan doesn't like, then the whole B-F community cause maybe it's their fault for putting the screws to trans couples and pulling queer cards (really?), and female ID's are the most sexist talking people around (worse than roofers even).

I didn't 'question' anyone's motives, Met. That's a little melodramatic, no? I *wondered* something. Same as you wonder things.

And yeah, Met...'pulling queer cards' happens. It happens to those who partner with transguys. It happens to butches who date men. It happens to those who've been married. It happens to lots of people, Met. If it's not YOUR personal experience, then it's not. But yeah, Met it happens. It's happened to my current partner and my previous partner on these sites. It's happened to friends of mine on these sites. And I've heard it too. So really, I don't even understand why you're arguing someone else's personal experience. Others in this and previous threads have stated the same thing. IT'S AN ISSUE, even if it's not an issue for you personally. Same as he-ing all butches is an issue.

And yes, in my personal experience (as I stated earlier), I have experienced the most sexist comments coming from FIBs. Sorry if that bothers you, but yeah, it's true. I've said it numerous times throughout numerous threads. I've even started threads about it. The first one I started was YEARS ago. So, yeah, it's my personal experience.

Anyway I know transmen who want to be recognized as transmen, who make a distinction between between themselves, experiences and feelings and men who aren't of a trans experience.

Great. Me too! What's your point?

I just feel like if you want people to call you a man, that's fine, scream it from the rooftops, but I don't think it's necessary to make it out that this community just doesn't respect transmen... all transmen are different (just like the rest of us human beings) and I don't think we should start referring to anyone by just one person's personal preferences.

Make it out like this community doesn't respect transmen? Ahhh, yes, because calling out some equals calling out a whole community. Also, why is calling out an ism/phobia considered a bad thing, Met? Why is that.

And this isn't about me, Met. This isn't 'just one person's personal...'. Others have stated the same thing...which started this whole particular conversation in the first place.

Also, being that you're not a man or a transman, I don't understand why you think you get to weigh in on it. I mean, lest we forget, even though you don't know if I ID as butch or not, you've decided I'm not allow to weigh in on Cynthia Nixon or her commentary on Men With Boobs. So, again, what's with the almighty double standard?


Pardon The Formatting, I'm Too Busy To Fix It,
Dylan