[adorable]

Originally Posted by June

It clearly is a serious issue! Otherwise, we wouldn't have a gajillion threads going on the topic! People wouldn't be walking around all butt-hurt because they feel like they're not being heard! People wouldn't be making broad, generalized statements about how one group is welcome here and other groups aren't and making snide comments about how "It's just like the dash site" Well, duh. We're all the same navel gazing group (give or take a few) and we're loud, obnoxious and opinionated and we want to make sure our points get across. I can and do get strident about things as well. But as tired as I am sometimes of having/watching these conversations, I do learn from them, and I suspect others do as well, or they wouldn't keep coming back for more. And more. And more.

Ok. I don't think it's dramatic to say what I see happening - I do tend to speak dramatically for special effect. I'm glad my manner of speaking is translating well online. Makes me feel like people are getting me.

Except that they aren't.

For me the conversation about male IDs and misogyny needs to be separate. They are completely different things. I am reading all the conversations in both threads and what I read is that there is a sense that there isn't a bigger issue and that it's just a few people who have a problem. In my mind, as I am reading those statements, I am saying "Yes, there are a few people arguing back and forth because so many MALE ID'S LEFT!"

I'm not saying that THIS SITE specifically (because there is a different attitude from the ownership here entirely.) I am saying that over the years <---and I wasn't there for all the years I am exhausted just from the time I've spent...that they stopped coming around. Now, my friends of whom there are male IDs about 10 that don't come to this site or the other site anymore do not come because they don't want to fight about who they are inside constantly. When they speak up about themselves and their insides they are accused by some (not all) of misogyny or of being dismissive to women.

How they feel is seen by some as a CHOICE. That they are choosing to feel the way they do on the inside in an effort to be more of a bio born man because there is something wrong with being a woman. It is a ridiculous notion for me personally because I see how separate those two things are....but because some people don't understand that - it becomes one and the same.

People who chose to transition are not doing so because they want to be better then women. They are doing that so that their insides and outsides match. Young people, old people and all people in between are not choosing to be men just because it's cooler then being a woman. That sentiment is dismissive to who people are on the inside. And it is here. Right here. Right now.

There are male IDs on this site who have not spoken up. I can't blame them. I am a fighter, but yesterday even I had just had it. It was too much. I think lots of people felt the same way on all sides.

It is not enough for people to say that they don't do it so it's not there. I see it as no different then when our friends would say something to my ex like "Happy Cinco De Mayo" when they knew she wasn't Mexican - and she would say "I don't celebrate that, that is a Mexican holiday." And they would say "Well but you're Spanish right?"
"No, I'm Venezuelan."
"Same thing! You know what I mean!"
Except that she didn't.
OY! And, I didn't keep a tally, but that shit happened all the time. It's not exactly racism right? But it sure is dismissive of who she IS...

So to say to people who feel like men on the inside that they are welcome to be here and then accuse them of some agenda or misogyny when they are in threads talking about who they are - is kinda the same thing for me. "We are your friends. We know and appreciate who you are! You are sexist and misogynistic!...well you know what I mean.." Except that they don't. So then they are stuck in the same argument of defending themselves for how they feel inside.

Being a male ID has nothing at all to do with wanting to be superior to women. It isn't about being more "hetronormative" and seeing that as superior to queerdom.

SOME people will see what they want to see no matter what people say...
LOTS of people no longer engage in these discussions. I am sure that everyone is tired of it. I know that I am.

I know that I am sick of people taking other people's ID's as a personal attack on women or female IDs. I sure got sick real fast of defending my personal ID over and over. Or having to explain why I was a butch and why my version of butch wasn't femme or that I was somehow butch enough to be butch?? In fact, I stopped engaging in all discussions about that for myself. I can't keep justifying and fighting for my insides to people that are making arguments about what it means to me based on who they are inside. And don't even get me started on the PMs based on how I look. (which happened all the time on the dash site) Ugh.

And in that way I am silenced. In the same way I see male IDs being silenced. People can say "Well, that's on you! Don't let anyone silence you!" Ahhh, and they are right. That for me is a choice. One that I needed to make for myself so that I didn't go to bed crying every night because of who I am being misunderstood when what I wanted so desperately to be understood by someone somewhere. It's shitty when it happens in real time or online. And it happens. It's real. It sucks.

As for the people who say privately that they want it to be a women only space, they also are not speaking up. I would rather people just say it out loud so we can deal with that. I would never call them out individually. I consider these people my friends too. I just don't happen to agree with them.
That is probably the toughest stand to take in all of this. And no one wants to lose friendships as a result of how they personally feel. The group is powerful as a body. To risk exclusion is also powerful, regardless of who you are, what you believe or how you ID.

As for the facebook thing - that actually wasn't a personal thing. I still like Metro and her art. lol. I believe that it was all an issue of bad timing. And even tho she thought I didn't pay attention to her posts - I have paid attention to her posts long enough over a year to know that she's not an asshole. This is a hot topic for those of us trying to engage in a meaningful way. Which I can say that Metro does and for that I am grateful.