[Hudson]

Originally Posted by evolveme

I love what you're saying here, and it's important to me too. I don't want to get caught in the trap of negative stereotyping, especially not of other feminine people.

But I posted earlier about how female and feminine people are socialized to "be good" (so that they are more easily controlled and thus more palatable to male/masculine others) and how this is so overwhelming that it forces natural tendencies to aggression into what is termed relational aggression.

You can witness these types of behaviors as early as kindergarten, even pre-school.

Girls will gather and isolate. They will shun and gossip. They will punish one another by way of social mechanisms (you can even see these behaviors displayed among certain gay male groups). It takes a strong sensibility and a compassionate heart to avoid these behaviors, because they too are heavily socialized.

ETA: I think it's much more useful to understand it than to rage about the tendency.

Originally Posted by Kosmo

Not sure either. I read it as certain gay male group behaviors = shun and gossip. Shunning and gossiping can hardly be a female only trait. Maybe it's thread topic specific. From my experience and perspective, males gossip just as much if not more (they have more opportunity for it; again, my experience only). Females seem to engage more in comparison discussions (I am in position at work to overhear a lot *where's my iPod?*) . As for shunning, not really sure. I've had experience to be shunned by both female traited and male traited people.

Male supporter here, invited, swear!

I want to touch on what e is talking about here. I think it's important to recognize that regardless of the culture or subculture, femininity never fails to be the scapegoat. If you look at the gay male community (with which I'm more familiar than even this one), masculinity is praised, femininity is suspect ("girl is such a nelly queen"). If you look at the lesbian/butch-femme community, masculinity is praised, femininity is suspect ("she looks straight, she's not a real femme" or "she always takes up for trans men, she's "rolling over for the men.")

I think we tend to overlook the ways in which many of us are drawn toward certain gender expressions, even when they contradict our socialization. The fact that there are young feminine boy and masculine girl children suggests that gender expression often precedes or supercedes gender norms. We must look at it in terms of biological as well as social constructs or else everything becomes a choice (gender, sexuality) which supports all kinds of wrong patriarchal ideas about the people here on this website.

That's why instead of constantly critiquing femininity, we should recognize that it exists on its own independent of anything else (as is being talked about in here) and can offer its own rewards to those who naturally gravitate to it, whether female or male. We need to recognize that assuming femininity is weak, passive, and only exists to appease, stroke, reassure men/masculine is one way this community is promoting the male-centric atmosphere that inspired this thread. We have to strip femininity from its negative connotations to free femme. I wonder if this has to happen before we can dislocate masculinity and change notions of it.