[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Deviant

[B]This is how I personally break it down...
masculine/feminine = characteristics
male/female = gender
man/woman = sex

So to me the Male ID'd Butch is a combination of the three.
sex (woman) + characteristics (male) = Male ID'd Butch (woman)

That may very well be for you, but that is not the case for many male id'd butches. For some maybe, but for others it is not at all the case. What I don't understand is why, on a forum that claims to accept the way everyone chooses to identify, there seems to be so many ready to explain to male id'd butches what they should be. And yet for most other id's, when a poster does this they're jumped on for not accepting the way a person chooses to identify.

I explained in my first post why I retain stone butch as a part of my identity. If you want the run down again, then here it is: I have never identified as a lesbian, a woman or female despite what some people like to tell me. Since early childhood I unquestioningly thought of myself as male. Not just "a boy," or "a man," but of the male sex. The only time in my life I ever even attempted to believe in any god was when I was 7 years old praying that I'd wake up one morning to find that it had all been a dream and that my body would be changed to what I always saw it to be.

Needless to say, that didn't happen. From that early I age I'd also always been attracted to women, which became a problem for me because there was no explanation for me (the word lesbian never worked for me), for what I was, for how I could continue to live my life. Middle school people start coming out as lesbians, bisexual etc. Women attracted to other women, and that brought me even more confusion and delayed my entrance into the queer community for quite a long time because I didn't feel it was the place for me. In many respects I still feel like it continues to put a wedge in between me and the community. I was not a woman attracted to other women. I did not want to be in a relationship where I was recognised as a woman, have an anatomy I detested in myself be recognised.

When I first came across the term stone butch it had been the closest term, at that time, that described who I was as far as what appeared to be sexual boundaries. It told me that I was not the only one who had been born with female genitals who did not want to be touched in a way that I deemed as feminizing (and since I know people have scoffed at that word in stone butch threads in the past, I'll put it more plainly: touched in a way that recognises genitalia I wish I'd never been born with). I know there are many different ways stone butches see their identity, and many won't agree with me on my perspective on my own identity. It gave me a means to understand myself at a time when I'd never met anyone who felt the same way; who was born with female genitalia, who was attracted to women, but who did not consider themselves female, woman etc. but male. I always had a strong aversion to the term FTM or transsexual because to me, even with surgery or hormones, it didn't recognise that I was already male in mind. It would never be a transition for me because my mind is a bigger definer, to me, of who I am than my body. I kept that as a part of my identity as a testament to the first thing that began to make some sense of me as far as my sexual orientation. As far as I applied it to myself, stone butch has never meant lesbian or woman, though I've always understood that some who identified a such did see themselves that way. To me, as far as I applied it to me, that was never how I saw it. To this day I still can't give an answer as to my sexual orientation because I don't have a clear cut answer. My brain tells me I'm a straight male born into something else that does not have a name for me (wanted to edit and clarify this before someone jumps on it...maybe this will make more sense: I feel like I'm straight according to my own perceived sex (male) and who I'm attracted to (women, more specifically femmes), yet also feel a part of the queer community. My attraction is to femmes and I honestly don't know what to call that beyond "I'm attracted to femmes." So my sexual orientation is simply someone of the male persuasion who is attracted to femmes if you want to call it anything...which makes me feel like I should just do away with defining my sexual orientation all together. While I can define my brain's sex and my gender, defining my sexual orientation has never been something that has come easily to me). If that makes me crazy and dillusional go ahead and think that of me. I don't care anymore.

In the end, the sex stays the same and the characteristics are usually very male. With an FTM transsexual the sex generally changes to MAN in the end and their characteristics are generally a more equal mix of male & female. It has been my experience with many of the FTM transsexuals I have met that after transition they are more open to explore their feminine characteristics because their gender & sex are in sync, male + man.

Not all FTMs get bottom surgery. They may get their gender marker on their id changed to M instead of F, get top surgery, go on T, but many haven't gone as far as bottom surgery. The whole point of the surgery is to bring your body in line with your mind...the neurological sex (which means sex is not as clear cut as we once thought, considering there are both biological and neurological components) has always been male. Why is it that people always take the physical body as more indicative of sex when the brain is also an indicator of sex. What happens to someone who does not have the opportunity or resources to go on testosterone, to get surgery? They have to submit to the world's interpretation of their sex just because the world can't crack open their skull and take a look inside? We have to be called women and female and dillusional until we have the money not to?

I often wonder when I see male ID'd butches on the site if that is how they present themselves to their family, their jobs, and the public in general outside of the forums. A male ID'd butch is still physically and usually legally a woman and therefore has the option of having one foot in both worlds. Whereas my husband, who has undergone SRS and is on hormone therapy can no longer present as a woman anywhere, and that is perfectly okay with him. That is how it is suppose to be, for him.

This comment makes it sound like male id'd butches are jumping between male and female worlds out of convenience, that they have a choice. Sure I have a choice. I have the choice to keep my job or to be out on my ass, jobless, homeless, in debt and even further away from surgery than I am now. I can tell my mother ten thousand times that I am male and it doesn't mean she'll accept that. Maybe she will one day. I first told her that when I was 4. At least she doesn't hate me. And many FtMs go through the same thing with their families telling them they aren't male despite the fact that they've gone on T, they've got the surgery, the gender legally changed etc. I don't have the "option" to have my foot in both worlds right now. I can barely use any fucking public washroom. At work I just get "friendly" mockery. That's the hand that's been dealt to me right now and I'm doing everything I can to be able to change that financially. But I need to go through "hell" to get to something better, so maybe part of that "hell" is not being recognised by this community either. I'm 25 years old, still paying off thousands in student loans while hoping to go back to school again and so put myself in debt...again, work my ass off in a full-time job that isn't going so great because of the economy, and trying to generally survive. Top surgery is right at the top of the list of priorities right now next to making enough money to live. I also recently got hired at a job that I won't be able to take time off from until next year, which is also a very physical job so I would have to take time off after top surgery. And because of the hours I work (and soon adding school to that again) I can't even go to therapy or support groups (I love the support group here for that reason. Thank you to all the regular guys there for accepting me into the group. You have no idea how thankful I am). Yeah, I know it's all excuses, same old sob story blah blah blah but honestly it's something that's going to take time and effort for me. I know it'll come eventually. I have to deal with life as it is for me right now. The comment suggests that I like and want to still be able to present as female to some people. That I'm somehow oh so "lucky" to have that "privilege" of being denied who I am by other people every day. Oh joy, oh bliss, don't hold your breath as I thank my lucky stars.

Luckily I have good friends that do recognise me, and luckily I also manage to pass decent enough walking down the street/going about life, though my spirit still sinks when I'm recognised as female by a random stranger, or when I get the 20 questions by random strangers on "what the fuck are you".

The point of this little outburst (not typically inclined to such outbursts or getting riled by much of anything but getting tired of the same old broken record spiel) is to try to clarify some things, and apparently people only hear you when you rant. I'm not asking for pity. I'm not asking for sympathy. I'm not even asking for anyone's help in any of this because I can deal with my own shit and take responsibility for my own shit. I'm not asking for anything except that at least in the queer community people would stop telling me that I'm dillusional, insane, a woman, a female and everything I've never understood myself to be; that it doesn't matter what I say or do I'm always what you think I am. As if I need anymore help in feeling trapped in this life. But I'm starting to think even that's too much to ask, so forget it. I'm not even asking that. If everything you all wrote is what you think, hell you've got that right and I certainly won't take it from you since I do believe everyone should have the right to their own thoughts and beliefs. But I also have the self-given right to reply whether anyone else chooses to give a rat's ass or not...so there you have it. I also have the feeling this will be interpreted as me being oh so terribly offended by other's thoughts. Not so. Like I said, we can all think what we want. Just annoyed at the same old song and dance, but ultimately I know, more and more, that maybe acceptance isn't something I should care enough to look for anymore.