[Gemme]

Originally Posted by QueenofQueens

The answer here lies within the question you asked. You are not Native American, nor am I, but would you at any time feel the need to qualify your identity as an American citizen by exclaiming that fact? Furthermore, do you make it a habit to describe yourself to people based upon all the things you aren't?

Normally, I'll say something like "I'm a Femme dyke" or "I'm gay" or "I'm Cuban", in order to give folks an idea about my identity if the subject comes up (which it does rarely and briefly offline). I never say "I'm not a gay man" or "I'm not a transensual femme" or "I'm Caribbean, but I'm certainly not Puerto Rican". To me, this seems rather nihilistic and divisive.

There have been times when I have said something along those lines or have heard someone say something along those lines. True, it's a rarity, but like most everything...it's been done.

Although, when I might say, "I am not _____ but yada yada yada" I am not attempting to claim my status as American, femme, etc. It's simply me addressing something that is connected for me. I find it difficult to see it as being divisive, but I can follow the road your thoughts are taking here. Perhaps the words themselves aren't divisive, but the connection itself that's being made is.

*shrug*

Voila! As I was beginning to respond to you, someone came into my lobby and provided me with a near perfect example of what I mean.

The guest I was talking with was telling me about his adopted son who was recently released from prison. While in prison this man made jewelry. Jewelry that resembled traditional Native American jewelry. In our conversation, my guest said, "Now, Joe's not Native American, but the jewelry he makes resembles that style." Would you consider that statement divisive?

To me, and granted I had the benefit of being in front of this gentleman and was able to see the pride shining from his eye (only one...the other's gone...but that's another story), but this is not divisive. To me, he's saying that his son does such high quality work in his jewelry making that it could be mistaken with that designed by Native Americans. That his replicas could be mistaken for their original pieces.

Not, isn't a dirty word, in and of itself. Everyone certainly has the right to make distinctions when false assumptions are made about who they are. The offense for me lies when that distinction is made with pejorative or rude language, or when it is expressed without sensitivity for those present.
I wouldn't say "I am NOT heterosexual because to me it squicks me out" around my straight friends as if being hetero was anathema. To me, it just isn't a kind way of expressing who I am.

I can understand the reflex that hearing/seeing that would cause. You are right; that's not a positive statement.

To your first question the answer is absolutely yes. If you make a statement denying that you are lesbian, then you are by definition rejecting that identity for yourself. As to your second question, I'm not a proponent of polarized thought at all. To me fluidity means just that, allowing oneself to embrace and travel among, many identities at once. Logically that allows little room for rejection. I have never said that a person couldn't be both lesbian and ____ and ____. But those of you who have rejected lesbian identity, seem to have assigned it a very narrow definition, and therefore, by shutting it out from the realm of possibility, in my opinion, are much nearer to black and white thinking than you believe yourself to be.

For myself, I don't have a definition for lesbian (except the one from the dictionary that's been regurgitated several times in here). As a non-lesbian (which I'm not fond of saying, as that seems like it makes everything lesbians versus everyone else and that's not how I see it, but I'll go with the flow for this thread), I have no right to define any lesbian's identity. BUT, I have no right to define anyone else's identity. Period.

I think the either/or thing is something we'll just have to agree to disagree on, but I see your thought processes more clearly now.

True fluidity needs to neither embrace nor reject any identity because it is capable of mercurial movement among all or none of them AND contrary to popular belief, fluidity and taxonomy can coexist peacefully.

These are questions that only you can answer for yourself. I could never, nor would I ever want to, make those determinations for someone.
If you're implying that my questions were somehow a veiled accusation, or an implication of having to choose "one or the other", I can assure you that they were not.

Nope, no accusations, although I do feel a bit like it's being turned into lesbians vs. non-lesbians, much like heterosexuals vs. homosexuals or butches and femmes vs. everyone else. There's so much division already, it seems unfortunate and unproductive to continue to spread the gap.

I can tell you that I fully embrace being a homosexual woman with all that entails. Because of that, I embrace all attendant terminology, as an act of both pride and defiance. When I was with a man, I still thought of myself as a dyke, largely because that is my authentic self. To me, identity is not determined by who we partner with, nor was I trying to imply that it is for those who do not claim "lesbian".

I asked several questions in this paragraph, some related to how we express our sexuality with another person, and some related to our own personal journeys to self actualization. For me, embracing the fact that I'm a lesbian, was a part of that journey. I just wonder how those who claim female homosexuality, while pairing that claim with the contradiction of rejecting the term lesbian, achieve peace. I was really being sincere, I'm trying to figure out how y'all come to terms with your homosexuality, since our paths to it are obviously very different.

My identity is like clothing. Some clothes feel better on me than others. Some are tight and restrictive and some are too loose and get caught on things all the time. I feel comfortable in wearing the term homosexual although it's not something I actively portray or seek. It just is. Lesbian feels like a pair of pants that just doesn't fit quite right. It doesn't mean they are defective pants; only that they do not fit my body and me.

We absolutely can proceed from a place of neutrality with regard to what doesn't apply to us. However, what I have witnessed here and elsewhere with regard to this admittedly sensitive topic, hardly passes as neutral from where I stand. If you (the general you) have no attachment to the lesbian id, then why qualify your identity by denying it?

I don't see being a non-lesbian as denying lesbianism or lesbians. I see it as knowing that that just doesn't work for me. Perhaps it's a personality thing? Because when I deny or reject something or someone, that thing or person KNOWS it. It would be more in your face. Here, for me, I just don't feel that lesbianism, as I know it, is for me.

Again, I shall agree to disagree with you.

Thank you too for engaging with me in a very thoughtful manner. I love and appreciate these types of discussions. For reals.

Anyway, I hope this clears up some of your confusion 'cause I'm kinda tired an' shit.

Actually, it did help. Thank you.

ETA: If one is pan- or omnisexual, that terminology is inclusive of all forms of hetero and homo sexuality. If one embraces pan- or omnisexuality as their identity, there is no logical reason to reject ANY sexual identity.

Oh, boy. So it's pan or omni-sexuals versus the rest of us now? *tongue in cheek*

Although.....flip your arguments, please. By claiming lesbian so strongly, are you (in general or those who feel this applies to them) DENYING every other form of sexuality and sexual expression? If so, why is this claim so different from those who say "I'm not lesbian"? I do understand about a post or two being worded hurtfully. Taking that out of the equation, aren't those proclaiming lesbian doing the exact thing that the non-lesbians are being accused of doing?

Originally Posted by BullDog

How people identify is of course entirely up to them. No one need identify as a lesbian. We are not recruiting.

.....

By the way I am not sure why people use masculine identified to refer to themselves as not identifying as woman and/or female. Butches who identify with being female are masculine. Women can and are masculine as well. My masculine pronoun is She.

I think you answered yourself by your first paragraph. It's not up to anyone to wonder WHY someone id's as they do. It's our job as a respectful human being to accept their self-identification for what it is: theirs.

Women can definitely be masculine. So can those who do not identify as women or connect with their female body. I think masculine is a connection between woman and man, separating them from each other but keeping them intertwined simultaneously.