[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Anya/Georgia

I totally agree.

I have stated previously that I am like Rippetta Van Winkle. I went into my long-term relationship and the world was one way, I came out of it and things were quite different.

20 years ago, there were butches, femmes and androgenous women that, as a femme, appeared more butch to me than femme.

The circle of friends that my ex and I had identified as either butch or femme. Everyone identified as a female so I did not have to try to figure too much out, or worry I might make a mistake and blunder into saying something wrong.

Before you jump on me, I totally get there have always been transgendered folk throughout history.

What is different, however, is that I did not even know anyone 15-20 years ago, that took T and changed gender. I found out kind of by accident on You Tube of all things after my break-up when I typed in "butch-femme" and found so many young transmen. This was a new concept for me. No negative judgments about it, it just took a little bit to wrap my head around.

I kept looking for butch lesbians and had a much harder time finding them before I found the planet. I do still get confused about pronouns and I become fearful I will insult someone, so frequently, I check and recheck their profile and if I still do not see it, I just do not say anything, rather than make a mistake.

I appreciate the lesbian zone because then, I am fairly sure (but never 100% positive) that I can pretty much tell, that those that post are lesbians-unless of course-they identify as trans.

I really like it that on this website we have a pronouns preferred section, because it is difficult to keep up. On other sites the default was always "he" and I, as a Lesbian, love the word "she" is it relates to Butch.

You are not alone.

Originally Posted by June

Age v. Feminism. Hmmmmm.

I am going to be 50 soon. Many of my friends are Lesbian Feminists, several of those are older than I am, so in my local community, I am in a cocoon of sorts. I know that I can be who I am because of the continuous work of others who came before me. I am not sure if I was 30 or younger that I would have the same perspective.

With that said, I am often amazed and in awe of our younger activists, who are out there pushing the envelope with regards to gender presentation and wider acceptance. I often attend gatherings locally where there are numerous gender presentations and identifications going on simultaneously, and I have to say, it's really energizing for me, and lets me gain new perspective and understanding. I don't always get it, but I appreciate it, because I believe strongly that people should be able to self-identify and be who they are. Those that are true to themselves, even under extreme adversity, even when it's not convenient, have my respect.

With that said, as I age, I do see and experience ageism. The lessening of value in the eyes of some others. The use of "Old" not as a descriptor, but as a slur. It's disheartening to me that my voice, or that of others may be perceived as less valuable by some.

There are many different versions of Feminism. I am starting to see us, in this community lose respect for the basic tenets, as I understand them of equality and the fight for women's voices to be heard and respected as much as male voices. For us to be able to use our strident voices without being dismissed as a Bitch or divisive. I might have more on that later, but these are my thoughts for now, Jen.

Maybe it is that we actually remember when things were really different for Women and Lesbians? And that we are so thankful and even surprised things have come so far that the memory of how women were treated way back when is fading?

Originally Posted by Heart

Hmmmm.... maybe.... perhaps there is a core conflict that is not being confronted head-on -- that of female leadership vs. trans leadership.

That could possibly translate as "old guard" vs. "new guard." I said possibly, cause I don't really know. But I wonder....

I think maybe women's communities (including lesbians, female identified butches, femmes, feminists, etc) and trans communities (particularly FtM trans-masculine folks, etc), are skating over some deep and serious stuff that needs to be worked through....

Heart

For me, it would work better if the two had separate leadership on some issues and operated hand in hand.

I would like to see Women's organizations headed by Women.

That being said, I can understand how someone already in a leadership position can change their perception on how the identify as they discover their own mind and path.

I have no clue what the answer is, but discussing it really helps us think.

Originally Posted by Kobi

What Heart says rings true for me but is a little more basic than just leadership, old and new guard.

To me, the issue comes down to basic female vs other than female identified. It comes down to not a butch thing, however one chooses to define it, but to a female vs non-female/male thing. And it is not about celebrating diversity. It is about attempts to meld genders into something acceptable to all.

While I have a great deal of respect for transpersons, I have no need or desire, nor do I find it at all beneficial to women to meld genders. I actually find that to be disturbing and downright foolish.

In many respects, it is like saying to a group of diverse ethnicities, lets all become one cuz our commonness is in being human. AND, lets have the white race head it all. I tend to think other ethnicities might have a wee bit of a problem with this considering the history and reality of ongoing oppression and racism.

Same is true when you try and meld female and non-female into "masculine of center". The very term negates my femaleness and promotes things masculine. This will never sit right with me.

In the same vein, there are attempts, from my point of view, to meld lesbian/gay with non lesbian/gay. Again, this doesn't sit right with me. I am not at all comfortable with giving up my lesbianism in any way, shape or form.

As a point of history, Planet didn't even have a Lesbian Zone back in 2010. It took a bit of controversy to get one. And then, a guy takes it upon himself to start the first thread in the Lesbian Zone. That was a power play and a very in your face display of masculine privilege.

To me, there are boundaries and space issues which should be respected if one wants to celebrate diversity. It is about not blurring boundaries or invading others space or one group taking it upon themselves to speak for another. To do so is putting one in a dominant position and the other in a subordinate one.

There may be a new world order coming but it shouldn't come at the expense of melding genders or orientations.

I agree with most of you post. I agree we should not all be melded into every Butch being a man...and not just because I dig Butches. lol. It is a different ID than Trans. Completely different.

However, I don't think this thread was created out of a power play in a malicious way. I think Liam was trying to be helpful. I do agree that it seems weird than a man started this thread and that being helpful when no help is wanted can seem heavy handed.

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

My understanding from the posts in this thread is that it is a place to proudly identify as a lesbian and find others who identify as such too. As of right now, however, it has degenerated into a "bitch about Butch Voices" thread, which, as I said before and still stand by, I believe would be best served in it's own thread instead of derailing this one.

As for Jess's comment, I was solely intending to use that to counter Heart's objection that discussion about what the term "butch" meant was not happening, when clearly it was.

I think the discussion about BV is important, like I said, I just don't think this was the right thread for it.

What would you like us to discuss? What what would be helpful to you?

Yes I am an out and proud Lesbian discussing Lesbian issues!

Originally Posted by BullDog

I still don't understand why people don't get why some of us feel the need and desire to have a Lesbian Zone (which is also of course open to Friends and Allies posting in) on a Butch Femme website to discuss issues of interest to lesbians or issues from a lesbian perspective. I seriously don't get it.

My difficulties with Butch Voices and the way I was treated by them had everything to do with the fact that I am a Butch Woman and Lesbian, so it makes perfect sense to me to discuss it in the Lesbian Zone. If it doesn't for others, you can always discuss it elsewhere. Or not.

I was a little puzzled when Liam started this thread since I had just started mine, but I do believe he started it to help bring visibility to lesbians when Kobi was new and trying to find her way here and wondering where the lesbians were. Linus also wanted to help Kobi out and I think that had a lot to do with the Lesbian Zone being created in the first place.

I actually started my thread on Lesbians/Dykes because people were wondering where the lesbians or lesbian threads were as well- different people, different thread than where Kobi was wondering. There wasn't a Lesbian Zone yet. I can't remember where I put it. Anyway Linus moved it to the Lesbian Zone. I was happy the Zone was created and that my thread was moved.

I think it just did not occur to anyone we would need a Lesbian Zone on a Lesbian website...and then when it because apparent that it was not just a Lesbian website people asked for the Zone and it was added.

I never posted in Dykes to Watch Out for Thread because I thought it was about the comic strip by a similar name and I never read it.

It is all about perception isn't it.

Great discussion!