[atomiczombie]

I am in red:

Originally Posted by Kobi

[COLOR="Navy"]
Atomic,

It is hard to answer you without expending a great deal of energy and time. The short version is women and lesbians, lesbians like me, have things to discuss that affect us as women and lesbians like me.

Ok.

We are perfectly capable of handing the process ourselves. It is our experience. Our experience includes issues related to women and lesbians being oppressed groups in a patriarchy.

No arguments here.

Much of the rationale you have listed in your post for your need to been involved here is almost word for word the same rational I have heard for decades. It is men need to be an integral part of defining the female experience. Not being a part is very threatening. There is just no nice way to say that.

Hmm, so when lesbians talk about gender and ID politics, they are not sometimes also defining the trans experience? I don't feel threatened. I feel frustrated when the people I quoted say the things they said in those quotes and then some pretend they are saying things that have nothing to do with trans people. Or, they blatantly say things about trans people, and yet I am told that I have no right to respond because it's a lesbian thread. When Chazz said that the concept of gender is a construct of patriarchy, that erases me and my gender. And yes, I was responding as a trans guy.

The rational that you are not speaking as a transman but as a human being denies that there are differences between the sexes. Heard that many times before too. When the oppression of women is eliminated, seeing everyone as human rather than a sex or gender is possible. In the current reality, it is just a rationalization or excuse to stop women from speaking of their reality.

I was talking as a human being when I asked you if you were really questioning what Heart stands for based on who she sleeps with.

It is my reality. Not your interpretation of my reality. And I am quite capable of speaking to it.

I never spoke for you or tried to interpret your reality. Where are you getting that?

And, in closing, yesterday this thread was very female, woman oriented. Today it is once again trans oriented. Funny how that keeps happening.

The divesity of sameness.

How has this thread become trans oriented? The topics have been all over the place - misogyny, patriarchy, the definition of lesbian, who qualifies, etc. Not just about gender ID politics and trans issues, although they have frequently come up.