[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I also doubt that the medical professionals forced to meet these requirements will be less than kind and gentle. But personally I don’t think that’s the point. Nor is it the point that the actual abortion requires a procedure, most likely vacuum aspiration, and that will necessitate something inserted in the vagina. Just because one thing has to go up someone’s vagina does not mean it’s a free for all and let’s just see how many things we can force her to have to put up there. Consent is something you give to a procedure that includes a process developed using medical reasoning. That is the point. You may as well add the requirement of forcing the woman to dress in 17th century garb and wear a scarlet letter on her chest. Perhaps she could be required to wear this for nine months. It is about as medically necessary as a vaginal ultrasound. Or really any ultrasound.

The fact that choice is illusionary is where the consent thing falls apart. A woman really has no other option but to do whatever is required no matter how ludicrous. So to me it is not the shape of the instrument, nor is it that it is to be inserted in one’s vagina, although I think this is the proverbial straw that broke the camel’s back. To me it is that there is no option for real consent here.

For you it is the word rape in this context that is problematic. And it also seems that you see a woman as still having a choice here. I could give you the rape thing in its most literal sense, I suppose, although I still see it as state sanctioned vaginal violation. But consent is most definitely non existent. To say one still has the choice to consent or not is to misunderstand the meaning of choice. And to totally miss the predicament of a woman who wants or needs an abortion and the urgency as well as the time sensitive nature of the decision a woman has to make. And technically if you remove any real choice, it's a form of coercion. I imagine coercing someone into letting you insert something into her vagina skirts uncomfortably close to rape. So I understand the feeling that it is rape. But I don't think the whole focus needs to be on this. In fact I think it may be counterproductive to focus exclusively on vaginal ultrasounds.

So I do agree that it is not only this vaginal ultrasound that is the issue. It is all the prerequisites being added to make abortion more and more difficult and costly. And since the U.S. Supreme Court, with Roe vs. Wade, declared a pregnant woman is entitled to have an abortion until the end of the first trimester of pregnancy without any interference by the state, this crap violates federal law. That needs to be the focus. Because those in control of the state, while screaming about the horrors of second and third trimester abortions, are focusing all their power on interfering with first trimester abortions. If you are saying that then I agree. Because it seems to me that it is very feasible that what you described with pregnancy tissue not being classified as medical waste would easily be the state’s next move. Women could soon be required to take home the results of their vacuum aspiration and pay for a burial or a cremation. That would certainly make the cost of an abortion out of reach for many.

We can’t afford to be separated over semantics. We need to unite against this very real threat to women’s rights. We need to look no further than Komen’s move against Planned Parenthood to understand the far reaching depth and seriousness of the coordinated forces unified against the contraceptive rights of women. So I do agree that the focus needs to be on stopping this continued chipping away at a woman’s right to control her body. I don’t care what you chose to call it. Call it rape or call it state sanctioned insanity but call it over. It needs to stop now.

Again we agree on most everything.

I look at processes. And, to me, in a process, the words we use to define something have both a very powerful impact on how we define something as well as an influence on the behavior which follows.

What I see happening here is a systematic, deliberate, organized force determined to impose their multifaceted moral agenda on other people using the very process that is in place to protect this from happening.

That, to me, is the forest we had better not lose sight of.

What is happening to women reproductive rights is a tree in that forest. As a tree, what is happening is absolutely horrible. What is more horrible is one state managed to get these restrictions imposed. Other states have followed and added more idiocy to the requirements as they went.

This assault on the reproductive rights of women, is a very complex social, emotional, political, theological, legal, legislative, psychological, sociological (and probably more) process to undo evolution in service to the beliefs and wishes of a certain group of elected officials who feel they can impose their morality on an unsuspecting public by abusing the power that was entrusted to them.

How does simplifying all that to the word "rape" or even "consent" help us? Does it even define the problem? Can holes be poked in the rationale for using these words simply by invoking a different train of thought and focus? Is it going to get us where we need to go? Or is it going to hamper us?

The idiots who are doing this shit, I think, are very much counting on us getting lost in the trees of what they are doing. The more they can get us to focus on the trees, the more we lose sight of the bigger picture. And, their attacks are multi faceted - atacks on women per se, attacks on the right of women to control their own bodies, attacks on womens intelligence, blatant sexism in the words of those in and running for office, the rights of queers, the rights of the poor, the rights of POC, immigration - they are hitting every single area where rights have been established. And they are seeking to dismantle them, little by little, using the legislative and legal process. And, they are doing one hell of a job.

We can use rape, a very emotionally laden word. The word, itself, makes some angry and that anger can be motivating. To some, the word envokes fear and fearful people turn inward. The word rape also creates a divide between women and men. One word can affect millions so differently.

To me, how we define a problem or frame it is crucial. The words we use in doing this can influence the direction of our thinking and actions, and the reactions we evoke in others, both positive and negative.

We can define it as a legislative process that legalizes rape of women by medical professionals. To me, that takes the process off the idiotis who are doing this and turns the focus on the people who are stuck having to enforce the law. This in turn sets up an adversarial thing between patient and caregiver.

We can define the problem as a gross error in judgement in electing the people we did. Here the strategy might be to look at who did we elect and why? What were they saying that intrigued us enough to vote for them while ignoring other aspects of their message that we should have paid attention to? How can we rethink our voting strategies to get these idiots out of office? How would we evaluate the best way to decide who we should vote for?

We could just say we need to fight this! Yeah we do! Fight what? If you havent defined it, how do you fight it?

To me, this is big, big, huge shit. It is about cause and effect. Women not being allowed to testisfy at a contraception hearing? Really? Vaginal probes before abortion? Cuz women are too stupid to know what they are doing and need to be force fed reality? Aspirin as a contraception? How sexist and demeaning. Gay marriage will lead to marriage with animals. Come again? More states jumping of the immigration wagon. Uh huh. Work requirements for the unemployed - so what if there are no damn jobs, we need to get their lazy asses moving - yes Sheldon that was sarcasm.

I dont want to downplay what is happening to the trees in the forest. The trees are a symptom of a much bigger problem. I am fearful if we get caught up in just the trees, the forest is going to come crashing down on our heads.

And, to me, the words we use matter, a lot.