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DapperButch · 08-15-2014, 11:12 AM

What I got from the article is that there are two main reasons why the author supports the festival including only "womyn born females" and desires it to remain this way:

1) She feels empowered/enjoys being in a space of people who were treated/socialized as girls growing up because they experienced misogyny, sexism, social conditioning as being "less than", etc,. It is this "shared experience" among the participants that creates this feeling for her.

2) She feels empowered/enjoys being in a space with people who live as adult womyn who currently experience misogyny, sexism, etc. from society. Again, this is a shared experience that she finds empowerment in.

She feels a need for both of these criteria to be met by the participants in order to have that feeling of empowerment, freedom, safety, etc.

This means that:

1) Women who were socialized as males (individuals often identify as trans* women) do not meet criteria #1.

Does she view them as meeting criteria #2? I don't know. The only way I could see them as NOT meeting criteria #2 is if they HAVE NEVER "PASSED" AS WOMEN, which I think is pretty doubtful (they have probably "passed" as least once in their life which lends itself to believe that they have experienced sexism, misogyny, etc.)

2) Men who were socialized as females (these individuals often identify as trans* men) meet criteria #1. I would suggest that some of these men pass some of the time, often, but some do indeed "pass" 100% if they have been on testosterone for a number of years. So, those who identify as men who do not "pass", therefore facing sexism, the author would agree with attending the event.

That's my assessment of the article.

Moving forward....

____

I heard many years ago that male identified female socialized individuals were allowed to attend MichFest, while female identified male socialized people were not. I found that interesting. I never looked into the truth of this back then though, so I actually don't know if this was true.

Reading this article this morning, made me curious to look into this. I couldn't find anything on the MichFest site, but I came across this from www.eminism.org, which I understand to be a respected and trusted website:

"Genderqueer people and others who identify as neither male or female are also excluded under this policy even if they were raised as girls. In 2000, several "trannie boys, boydykes, FTM's, Lesbian Avengers and young gender-variant women" - who were not transsexual women - were evicted from the festival for their refusal to identify as "womyn-born womyn" either because they no longer identify as women, or in solidality with their comrades. "

http://eminism.org/michigan/faq-intro.html

I do not know when the above was written, so I decided to search a bit more. This is what I read on Wikipedia:

"After artists were once again requested to boycott festival in 2014, Vogel issued another statement on the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival's Facebook on May 9 to address what she called the "rampant inaccuracies in social media" regarding the festival. In it, she noted:

We have said that this space, for this week, is intended to be for womyn who were born female, raised as girls and who continue to identify as womyn. This is an intention for the spirit of our gathering, rather than the focus of the festival. It is not a policy, or a ban on anyone. We do not “restrict festival attendance to cisgendered womyn, prohibiting trans women” as was recently claimed in several Advocate articles. We do not and will not question anyone’s gender. Rather, we trust the greater queer community to respect this intention, leaving the onus on each individual to choose whether or how to respect it. Ours is a fundamental and respectful feminist statement about who this gathering is intended for, and if some cannot hear this without translating that into a “policy”, “ban” or a “prohibition”, this speaks to a deep-seated failure to think outside of structures of control that inform and guide the patriarchal world. Trans womyn and transmen have always attended this gathering. Some attend wanting to change the intention, while others feel the intention includes them. Deciding how the festival’s intention applies to each person is not what we’re about. Defining the intention of the gathering for ourselves is vital. Being born female in this culture has meaning, it is an authentic experience, one that has actual lived consequences. These experiences provide important context to the fabric of our lives, context that is chronically missing from the conversation about the very few autonomous spaces created for females. This erasure is particularly mindboggling in a week when 276 girls were kidnapped and sold into sex slavery solely because they were female. This is the world females live in.[29]"

Hmmmm...so Vogel says that "this space, for this week, is intended to be for womyn who were born female, raised as girls and who continue to identify as womyn". Enimism says that those who "identify as neither male nor female...young gender variant women" aren't really welcomed either.

<I just lost the bottom half of this post...killer when this happens...will try again>

So, reading all of this makes me wonder. Do the people here at BFP realize that many of the members of our site would not be encouraged to attend this event? I am wondering how people feel about this. I especially curious wonder about those who subscribe to the author's and support Vogel's "intention" that only cis womyn identified womyn attend this event?

Let's look at who at this site would not be included due to identification and/or socialization:

1) Transsexuals (FTMs, MTFs)

2) Those that identify as transgender or trans*

3)Those who identify as genderqueer, gender fluid, gender neutral, without a gender, neutrois, two spirit, you get the idea....

4) Male identified butches

5) MANY female identified butches.

That last one? Really? Sure. There are a hell of a lot of butches here (maybe even most), who don't identify as women, or who do identify as gender variant in some way. We need not look past the pronoun statuses of many butches here to tell us this. How many say something like, "he or she, doesn't matter to me", " call it as you see it", "indifferent", or even "she or hy". The famous, old time "hy" (which I have used for eons). "Hy" is at minimum a form of gender variance, isn't it?

I wonder how many people know that they themselves, their lovers, or their friends from this site shouldn't attend this event if they want to follow the guidelines as to who this event is for?

If you are still reading, God love ya. I swear this is the longest post I have every written. Well, maybe not.

Anyway, what is my opinion on who should attend this event?

Whoever Vogel says the event is for. Yep. I don't think a damn thing should change. I swear in my heart of hearts I don't.

It's her event. It is not the "community's" event. Or, at least I hope she doesn't say it is the "community's event" Why? Because there is no way every womyn born womyn who attends this event would want to leave that many of their friends, family, and lovers at home.

P.S. If you plan to attend in the future, it is probably best if you leave your "butch cock" at home, if it one of those "realistic" looking ones, anyway.

08-15-2014, 11:12 AM	#38
DapperButch Roadster Guy How Do You Identify?: FTM, Stone Butch Preferred Pronoun?: He Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Northeast Posts: 7,745 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 26,545 Thanked 26,814 Times in 5,772 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	What I got from the article is that there are two main reasons why the author supports the festival including only "womyn born females" and desires it to remain this way: 1) She feels empowered/enjoys being in a space of people who were treated/socialized as girls growing up because they experienced misogyny, sexism, social conditioning as being "less than", etc,. It is this "shared experience" among the participants that creates this feeling for her. 2) She feels empowered/enjoys being in a space with people who live as adult womyn who currently experience misogyny, sexism, etc. from society. Again, this is a shared experience that she finds empowerment in. She feels a need for both of these criteria to be met by the participants in order to have that feeling of empowerment, freedom, safety, etc. This means that: 1) Women who were socialized as males (individuals often identify as trans* women) do not meet criteria #1. Does she view them as meeting criteria #2? I don't know. The only way I could see them as NOT meeting criteria #2 is if they HAVE NEVER "PASSED" AS WOMEN, which I think is pretty doubtful (they have probably "passed" as least once in their life which lends itself to believe that they have experienced sexism, misogyny, etc.) 2) Men who were socialized as females (these individuals often identify as trans* men) meet criteria #1. I would suggest that some of these men pass some of the time, often, but some do indeed "pass" 100% if they have been on testosterone for a number of years. So, those who identify as men who do not "pass", therefore facing sexism, the author would agree with attending the event. That's my assessment of the article. Moving forward.... ____ I heard many years ago that male identified female socialized individuals were allowed to attend MichFest, while female identified male socialized people were not. I found that interesting. I never looked into the truth of this back then though, so I actually don't know if this was true. Reading this article this morning, made me curious to look into this. I couldn't find anything on the MichFest site, but I came across this from www.eminism.org, which I understand to be a respected and trusted website: "Genderqueer people and others who identify as neither male or female are also excluded under this policy even if they were raised as girls. In 2000, several "trannie boys, boydykes, FTM's, Lesbian Avengers and young gender-variant women" - who were not transsexual women - were evicted from the festival for their refusal to identify as "womyn-born womyn" either because they no longer identify as women, or in solidality with their comrades. " http://eminism.org/michigan/faq-intro.html I do not know when the above was written, so I decided to search a bit more. This is what I read on Wikipedia: "After artists were once again requested to boycott festival in 2014, Vogel issued another statement on the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival's Facebook on May 9 to address what she called the "rampant inaccuracies in social media" regarding the festival. In it, she noted: We have said that this space, for this week, is intended to be for womyn who were born female, raised as girls and who continue to identify as womyn. This is an intention for the spirit of our gathering, rather than the focus of the festival. It is not a policy, or a ban on anyone. We do not “restrict festival attendance to cisgendered womyn, prohibiting trans women” as was recently claimed in several Advocate articles. We do not and will not question anyone’s gender. Rather, we trust the greater queer community to respect this intention, leaving the onus on each individual to choose whether or how to respect it. Ours is a fundamental and respectful feminist statement about who this gathering is intended for, and if some cannot hear this without translating that into a “policy”, “ban” or a “prohibition”, this speaks to a deep-seated failure to think outside of structures of control that inform and guide the patriarchal world. Trans womyn and transmen have always attended this gathering. Some attend wanting to change the intention, while others feel the intention includes them. Deciding how the festival’s intention applies to each person is not what we’re about. Defining the intention of the gathering for ourselves is vital. Being born female in this culture has meaning, it is an authentic experience, one that has actual lived consequences. These experiences provide important context to the fabric of our lives, context that is chronically missing from the conversation about the very few autonomous spaces created for females. This erasure is particularly mindboggling in a week when 276 girls were kidnapped and sold into sex slavery solely because they were female. This is the world females live in.[29]" Hmmmm...so Vogel says that "this space, for this week, is intended to be for womyn who were born female, raised as girls and who continue to identify as womyn". Enimism says that those who "identify as neither male nor female...young gender variant women" aren't really welcomed either. <I just lost the bottom half of this post...killer when this happens...will try again> So, reading all of this makes me wonder. Do the people here at BFP realize that many of the members of our site would not be encouraged to attend this event? I am wondering how people feel about this. I especially curious wonder about those who subscribe to the author's and support Vogel's "intention" that only cis womyn identified womyn attend this event? Let's look at who at this site would not be included due to identification and/or socialization: 1) Transsexuals (FTMs, MTFs) 2) Those that identify as transgender or trans* 3)Those who identify as genderqueer, gender fluid, gender neutral, without a gender, neutrois, two spirit, you get the idea.... 4) Male identified butches 5) MANY female identified butches. That last one? Really? Sure. There are a hell of a lot of butches here (maybe even most), who don't identify as women, or who do identify as gender variant in some way. We need not look past the pronoun statuses of many butches here to tell us this. How many say something like, "he or she, doesn't matter to me", " call it as you see it", "indifferent", or even "she or hy". The famous, old time "hy" (which I have used for eons). "Hy" is at minimum a form of gender variance, isn't it? I wonder how many people know that they themselves, their lovers, or their friends from this site shouldn't attend this event if they want to follow the guidelines as to who this event is for? If you are still reading, God love ya. I swear this is the longest post I have every written. Well, maybe not. Anyway, what is my opinion on who should attend this event? Whoever Vogel says the event is for. Yep. I don't think a damn thing should change. I swear in my heart of hearts I don't. It's her event. It is not the "community's" event. Or, at least I hope she doesn't say it is the "community's event" Why? Because there is no way every womyn born womyn who attends this event would want to leave that many of their friends, family, and lovers at home. P.S. If you plan to attend in the future, it is probably best if you leave your "butch cock" at home, if it one of those "realistic" looking ones, anyway. __________________ -Dapper Are you educated or indoctrinated?