Quote:
Originally Posted by Martina
Put it in CONTEXT, Dylan. This is backlash to the fact that some butches are talking about being women. There have been way way ruder expressions of it. And i am sure the OP was quite genuine. But that's the context.
A fair number of people on this site think that butches speaking about being women silences and marginalizes them. i am not going to track down the posts that have made that very clear. They are mostly on the other site, anyway.
The fact is that in the past butches who are women were marginalized. Their speaking now about who they are is not silencing ANYONE.
Another fact is that you have an agenda. You want to to really separate queer in this community from woman -- as in drag them as far away from each other as they can possibly go. FINE. But that's your agenda. You should really be up front about it.
Characterizing butch women who speak about who they are as part of some hegemonic discourse that is silencing to others is intentionally FORGETTING that they were the ones who were marginalized and shamed into not speaking for a long time.
The old site for a long time was very much dominated by the assumption that butches were male-identified. That is changing. That is A GOOD THING. It is not oppressing to people who are not women.
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Martina,
When you say, "This is a backlash," what is the 'this'? Are you talking about the OP, or are you talking about my post? I kinda get the idea you're saying the OP is a backlash. And honestly, I just don't see it. The OP was referring to the fact that some butches just don't ID as 'woman'. Just like some femmes don't ID as 'woman'. Why is that seen as a 'backlash' to women?
But then, of course, when Another ID talks about their own ID, it's naturally a 'backlash' and an affront to women. Talking about another ID under the queer umbrella is always seen as victimizing women in one form or another. The perpetual victimhood of women...another reason I moved out of 2nd wave rhetoric, and into 3rd and 4th wave.
EVERY butch has been marginalized...not just women butches. E.V.E.R.Y. Butch.
Women butches, once again, don't get a special ticket on the EXTRA marginalized than anyone else on this site.
When they hijack a thread about Another's identity...they ARE silencing.
Ahhhh, and of course, I have an agenda. And of course, my agenda is 'separate'. Naturally. My 'agenda' is that ALL IDs on a QUEER website get to rejoice and dance around the fire without having to make excuses, take a bunch of flack, explain to others why they don't ID as This or That, and so on. But ANYONE who says, "I don't ID as woman" is immediately met with suspicion and the dogma of the 2nd wavers.
"Behold my dogma and rhetoric and conform to it...because if you don't, you're not a REAL feminist, and you're just a misogynist"
Again...another reason I stepped into 3rd and 4th wave.
There's no secret 'agenda', and if fact that sounds like all the repub fundies with their 'gay agenda' rhetoric. And once again, it perpetuates the victimhood 2nd wave loves loves loves to hold onto.
But, you'll continue to think any other ID than 'woman' has an 'agenda'. It's NOT that I believe all IDs on a QUEER website should be able to throw a party to celebrate their queeerness as they see fit...no, it's always about women being silenced and victimized.
It's always an affront to women, isn't it? Everything that 2nd wavers don't like is an affront and a victimization. Even when some women ID'd folks won't let others have a conversation about how they don't ID as women.
EVERYONE on this site has been silenced and shamed into silence. Every.single.person. Again, women don't have a special ticket on the Oppression Train.
Whether the old site was this or that has no relevance on how people act in this thread. And I don't even see why you're bringing male Id'd butches up in this thread. The OP didn't say anything about Male ID'd anything.
And what? So, since women butches were oppressed on the old site, they get to stomp all over everyone else's QUEER id on this site? They get to overtake any thread they want, because they were oppressed on the old site? Does that mean every other oppressed group from the old site gets to barge into any old thread they want and wave their finger of victimhood all over too?
This thread wasn't started about women butches. It was started as a 'please recognize This ID too without lumping me into the wrong group'.
Some butches are women ID'd...go start another celebration thread about it.
Some butches are male ID'd...yay! Oh, wait, they're not supposed to celebrate, because that's not nice and victimizes women.
Some butches are just butch ID's and not women or male ID'd...oh wait, that's an affront and a backlash to women too. Hush your celebrating.
Some femmes ID other than woman also...how come that's never talked about...oh wait...when it was they were told they were just confused and again, it was an affront to women.
This is a QUEER website. Not a woman or lesbian website. The owners have stated that. Barging into threads that have nothing to do with your ID is rude, obnoxious, and policing. Not everyone here is 'woman' and not everyone here is a 2nd waver.
Dylan