[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Martina,


EVERY butch has been marginalized...not just women butches. E.V.E.R.Y. Butch.

Women butches, once again, don't get a special ticket on the EXTRA marginalized than anyone else on this site.

No kidding. How is that a response to anything i said? Re the backlash, people have said they didn't feel welcome anymore BECAUSE butch women were posting about being butch and women. i don't get that.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Ahhhh, and of course, I have an agenda. And of course, my agenda is 'separate'. Naturally. My 'agenda' is that ALL IDs on a QUEER website get to rejoice and dance around the fire without having to make excuses, take a bunch of flack, explain to others why they don't ID as This or That, and so on. But ANYONE who says, "I don't ID as woman" is immediately met with suspicion and the dogma of the 2nd wavers.

DO not characterize me as a second waver. You don't know my politics. i don't even follow some of this, Dylan. The pun on separate? Point? Yeah, i know that is your agenda. i think that characterization of the reaction to it is wildly overstated.

Originally Posted by Dylan

"Behold my dogma and rhetoric and conform to it...because if you don't, you're not a REAL feminist, and you're just a misogynist"

What is with you, Dylan? You do this a lot. You put words in people's mouths. It's hostile. It's rude. It exaggerates their position. Why do you do it?

Originally Posted by Dylan

Again...another reason I stepped into 3rd and 4th wave.

There's no secret 'agenda', and if fact that sounds like all the repub fundies with their 'gay agenda' rhetoric. And once again, it perpetuates the victimhood 2nd wave loves loves loves to hold onto.

i know it's not secret. You've stated it. Why, again, the paranoia, the comparison to fundies. What, what, what are you accomplishing beyond ad hominem attacks?

Re second and third wave, you've got my goat, so i am just gonna assert my creds. i studied Kristeva, Irigary, Cixous, Haraway, Butler etc. under some of the greatest scholars of their generation. Wanna talk post-second wave feminism? Let's do it.

The idea of accusing anyone who is on this site of second wave feminism is ridiculous.

Yeah i don't want to share some experiences with some men. Guess, what? i don't have to. That does not make me anything you are accusing me of.

Originally Posted by Dylan

But, you'll continue to think any other ID than 'woman' has an 'agenda'.

And i said that where? The only person i said had an agenda is you. Do i think some folks are reacting because butch women have spoken up? Yes. That is not saying they have an agenda.

Originally Posted by Dylan

NOT that I believe all IDs on a QUEER website should be able to throw a party to celebrate their queeerness

i think so too -- as long as there is the queerness as part of it. .

Originally Posted by Dylan

..no, it's always about women being silenced and victimized.

Exaggerate much? Dylan, for you it's rarely about that. You take opportunities to rephrase situations and arguments so they lack any feminist critique at all. i have seen it. Once i called you on it. Something about it bothers you. Clearly.

Originally Posted by Dylan

It's always an affront to women, isn't it? Everything that 2nd wavers don't like is an affront and a victimization. Even when some women ID'd folks won't let others have a conversation about how they don't ID as women.

"Everything" and "always" -- how is anyone supposed to respond to that?

No one is stopping anyone from having any conversation. How can that even be done?

Your repeated characterization of me and others as second wavers is ABSURD. Second wave feminism has been integrated to the feminism of people of this generation, but no one who is alive and reading and participating in the world has not moved past it. For god's sake i fought the sex wars against second wave feminists.

Originally Posted by Dylan

EVERYONE on this site has been silenced and shamed into silence. Every.single.person. Again, women don't have a special ticket on the Oppression Train.

Just because everyone has had some experience of it does not mean they don't do it to others and that specific instances and patterns should not be brought up. Who EVER said women have a special ticket? WHY, DYLAN, do you argue by putting words on other people's mouths, characaturing and exaggerating their positions? Do you think that's effective?

Originally Posted by Dylan

Whether the old site was this or that has no relevance on how people act in this thread. And I don't even see why you're bringing male Id'd butches up in this thread. The OP didn't say anything about Male ID'd anything.

Again, i don't really care what thread or whatever. The direction of the argument was bringing this up again. i am sorry if the OP and others lost some space. i am not trying to rob anyone of anything.

Originally Posted by Dylan

And what? So, since women butches were oppressed on the old site, they get to stomp all over everyone else's QUEER id on this site? They get to overtake any thread they want, because they were oppressed on the old site? Does that mean every other oppressed group from the old site gets to barge into any old thread they want and wave their finger of victimhood all over too?

"Stomp all over" and "Wave their finger of victimhood" -- that's a real good way to build solidarity. It's rude, Dylan.

Originally Posted by Dylan

This thread wasn't started about women butches. It was started as a 'please recognize This ID too without lumping me into the wrong group'.

Some butches are women ID'd...go start another celebration thread about it.

Some butches are male ID'd...yay! Oh, wait, they're not supposed to celebrate, because that's not nice and victimizes women.

Yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, there are expressions of male energy that can alienate and even trigger others -- not all of whom are women, by the way. i do not deny saying this. THat does not mean that i or anyone am ANYBODY's VICTIM. i sure as hell am not.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Some butches are just butch ID's and not women or male ID'd...oh wait, that's an affront and a backlash to women too. Hush your celebrating.

i don't understand what you're saying.

Originally Posted by Dylan

Some femmes ID other than woman also...how come that's never talked about...oh wait...when it was they were told they were just confused and again, it was an affront to women.

Where is this coming from?

Originally Posted by Dylan

This is a QUEER website. Not a woman or lesbian website. The owners have stated that. Barging into threads that have nothing to do with your ID is rude, obnoxious, and policing. Not everyone here is 'woman' and not everyone here is a 2nd waver.

Who has ever ever made that assumption on this website -- that everyone is a woman and a second wave feminist or should be? That has never been the case at any time on either website.

No kidding it's a queer website. i hope it stays that way.