[Cin]

I may not be able to find the verbiage to explain it; I may not be able to express it satisfactorily in language that doesn’t use characteristics and mannerisms defined as masculine and feminine, but I know butch and femme when they walk in the room. I also know it’s not society’s interpretation of masculine and feminine. It’s queered and perhaps that makes all the difference.

I’m not sure I understand what exactly you are looking for or trying to get at, but hopefully by asking for a little clarification it will become clear to me.

Do the words masculine and feminine define exactly what we mean when we try to describe queer identities? I think not. Can they be called something else? I suppose so. But old meanings die hard. Therefore if I keep asking you for a chain saw when I want an apple and you’re not aware of or clear about the new definitions, I don’t think I’m going to be happy with the results. I mean if we find another way of referring to what we mean when we say masculine and/or feminine aren’t we going to encounter the same limitations? Or are you saying we don’t mean anything at all when we say masculine and feminine? That the definitions are now so limitless as to have lost meaning? Or perhaps they never had meaning at all?

You said “all words don’t need to have precisely the same meaning for everyone, but in order for language to function we do need it to at least have something in common.” And you see masculine and feminine as have nothing in common with what we mean when we try to describe our identities? What new words are you thinking of to replace masculinity and femininity? Should we use butch and femme instead? And how will they have clearer meaning than masculine and feminine for queer and trans identities? How will butch/femme be understood outside of gender and without the use of characteristics or other descriptors?

You ask “what happens when these people participate in the butch/femme dynamic, if we see butch as strictly a masculine entity and femme as a strictly feminine entity.”
I don’t think everyone sees butch as strictly a masculine entity and femme as a strictly feminine entity.

I don’t agree that co-opting masculinity from heterosexual definitions of it are playing into society’s belief that we mimic heteronormative gender roles anymore than just being in a butch-femme relationship plays into their belief that we are imitating their heterosexual relationships. Besides, in the words of Rhett Butler, frankly my dear, I don’t give a damn.

You say you feel good about the reclaiming of feminine by many queer women because what pertains to women has been far too caught up with what heteronormative society has made it. But why not reclaim masculine as well? Is it not also far too caught up? Neither masculine or feminine is the sole property of heterosexuals. And really masculinity is so heavily and aggressively patrolled that I enjoy co-opting it for my queer identity. I like claiming woman and I like claiming both masculinity and femininity although heteronormative society is much more comfortable with my claiming masculine so they can sneer at me. They seem to find it unsettling when I claim woman and feminine. I’ve been told I look like I’m in drag if I sometimes dress in woman’s clothes. Too damn bad. Woman is as woman does. And I’m a woman. Just like feminine is however I am. And masculine is mine if I want it. And I want it. Nobody owns it.

I think I get some of what you are saying. What do i mean when I say feminine is however I am. How am I when I am feminine? How am I when I am masculine? What does that mean? Good questions. And I suppose descriptions of characteristics, mannerisms, leisure activities, and looks are not very satisfying. And energy is also rather abstract. But if you chose other words to define this, such as butch/femme, what words would you use to explain what is butch? what is femme? And if we don't need these terms then what terms do we need? If we don't need any terms at all then how will we talk to each other? What language will we use to navigate the space between us?

It sounds like you have given this some thought what have you come up with?