[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I don’t agree that co-opting masculinity from heterosexual definitions of it are playing into society’s belief that we mimic heteronormative gender roles anymore than just being in a butch-femme relationship plays into their belief that we are imitating their heterosexual relationships.

What I am trying to express in this thread has very little to do with what heterosexual society may or may not think. My interest is more in the underlying implications for our own community and how we see ourselves. If butch and femme already define "the way we are" (meaning our self-expression and personal identity), then why do we need these secondary words (masculine and feminine) that have, encoded into the very fabric of the word, a certain dynamic that does not define us? Why not just stick with butch and femme?

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

You say you feel good about the reclaiming of feminine by many queer women because what pertains to women has been far too caught up with what heteronormative society has made it. But why not reclaim masculine as well? Is it not also far too caught up?

If you reread my original post, you'll see that I've actually considered exactly what you've said. In fact, it was that very problem that I was expressing.

If the origin of "masculine" is that which pertains to men or cissexed males, then is it not a denial of many butch's identities to refer to them as "masculine"? That use of the word "masculine" and its reference to butches seems to ride off the heterosexist assumption that queer identities (and in this case, butch/femme identities) are mimicking heteronormative and cissexist presumptions of gender. That butches and gender-variant AFAB identities are just "trying to be men." Evidently, this is completely false. No queer identity, nor gender-variant identity is an imitation of heterosexual or cissexed normalized identities. Yet I feel that we often play into it, and are we not doing ourselves a disservice by using the word "masculine" to describe woman identities, or identities that vary from cissexed male identities?

On the other hand, I also feel that the reclaiming of "feminine" by many queer women, and particularly queer femmes is something that I feel good about. For too long, "feminine" and "what pertains to women" has been far too caught up with what heteronormative society has made it.

But conversely, does feminine always mean "all characteristics pertaining to women"? If so, where does this leave woman-identified butches who don't feel that the word "feminine" defines them or who they are? So feminine is also a bit problematic as it pertains to woman/female identities.

I actually say there that I also find feminine problematic, despite that I might have initially felt good about recreating these terms to fit queer identities.

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Nobody owns it.

And that's part of exactly what I'm saying in this thread. If you look at the above exchange between myself and Slater, he is saying that "masculine" and "feminine" possess boundaries, and that labels that are limitless are useless. My argument is precisely the opposite: That if we do not define "masculine" and "feminine" by their traditional (and current) definitions, then they really are limitless. Either define them by their actual etymology, or regard them as entirely limitless terms that serve more of a social purpose (ridding society of the binary altogether) than any real definition with boundaries of meaning. But don't try to redefine it in the same absolutist, limited way that the original meaning and current popular usage implies. If they're going to be recreated, then they have to be recreated as absolutely open and limitless and not dependent upon any characteristics/energy/interest/expression, so that anyone who decides to recreate them for themselves in order to deconstruct heteronormative, oppressive assumptions does not have to be stuck within the confines of a box created by queer groups, instead of a box created by heteronormative society.

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I think I get some of what you are saying. What do i mean when I say feminine is however I am. How am I when I am feminine? How am I when I am masculine? What does that mean? Good questions. And I suppose descriptions of characteristics, mannerisms, leisure activities, and looks are not very satisfying. And energy is also rather abstract. But if you chose other words to define this, such as butch/femme, what words would you use to explain what is butch? what is femme? And if we don't need these terms then what terms do we need? If we don't need any terms at all then how will we talk to each other? What language will we use to navigate the space between us?

This part of your post is more what I'm talking about and hoping from this discussion! My question in response to your question (maybe I have too many fucking question? ) as far as what what words would I/we use to describe butch or femme: Why do we need preset words to describe butch and femme? Why can't they just be what that specific butch or femme describes themselves as? Considering the amount of language the b/f community and queer community as a whole has already created to describe itself, I don't think it's really a problem to allow each person to define themselves in whatever terms they'd like. Which, to me, means dropping the assumption that we all see the dynamic as one between "masculine" and "feminine" identities, or where they are mixed an identity that is more "masculine" and one that is more "feminine."

Heteronormativity, to me, means a reliance on heavily controlled categorization that tells people A characteristics = C, B characteristics = D.

Queer, to me, means the deconstruction of controlled categories, meaning that we can create whatever language we want around them. Over time, butch and femme have gone from not particularly controlled terms, to very controlled term, and now have come back full circle to not particularly controlled terms. In some respects I see masculine and feminine as remnants of a time when they were heavily controlled within the community. Part of my point is that if we continue to use them, then it should be on an individual open/limitless sense, rather than using them as set defining terms for the dynamic.

Does that make anymore sense? :S

I also fully understand where this becomes problematic for myself (and perhaps for some others). As I mentioned before, what then defines my attraction to femmes if not femininity, and a femme's attraction to butches if not masculinity? I guess I'm coming to closer to feeling like the answer to that, for me, is how each one actually defies the socially accepted categories. Perhaps (speaking for myself only of course) it's that complete denial of socially accepted masculinity/femininity coupled with individual physical characteristics (that neither define butch or femme) one just happens to find attractive. All that can just be "femme" or "butch," no?