[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Nat

I feel like I have often acted as lubricant too, but I don't think I have ever once been with somebody who acted as my lubricant.

Me too, except for the fact that my Femme friends have often acted as my social lubricant. heh.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think Femmes have diverse (and possibly divisive) labels such as Stone Femme, Queer Femme, Lesbian Femme, High Femme, Tomboy Femme, etc.

Yes, but I don't think they carry the same *gender* connotations for us that they do for our butch/trans counterparts.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I don't think the other side of this coin really gets those labels and sometimes I see those labels used to mock femmes (or femmes that make up the "ex" on their personal life's map.)

So I do think that we as a community of self-identified Femmes can demonstrate by doing over talking.

Now why is it that the other side doesn't get those labels? Or that the labels are mocked? Are we really going to sell our selves so short to say that when we discuss ourselves we are "over talking"? When there are pages and pages of threads about butch and trans identities and that is ok? That is something we need to examine I think.

Originally Posted by Arwen

I'm not sure how we appropriate Butch/Transguy/Them by being an ally. I think I'm not reading your point correctly on this. Can you expound on it when you are feeling better?

I think we appropriate these labels by losing ourselves to some extent. I have never EVER seen a trans guy question themselves and their identities once they started dating a Femme. Have you? I'd fall over if Cal woke up tomorrow and said to me...."Am I a Femme now"? Ha! No. What happens is Femmes struggle with "Am I straight now"?. Femmes also seem to go through the transition process with their beloved. Am I even remotely making sense?

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think that, for me, building a fence is when I tell a butch who id's one way how "all" other butches of another id think/feel/act.

It is honestly something I have to watch myself on because I'm really good at telling other people what other people think.

OMG. I think I just realized something. I've set myself up as a thought translator.

Well that's not good.

Thought translation and Tarot Reading can't be that far off can they?

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I find myself wanting to speak for my homies or my boy and Grant, I don't. OH I want to I really do but truth be told, I am coming from and emotional state and not a logical one. I feel when I come in sword charging it dimisses them and their words and value, so as hard as it is I have to sit back and watch and give only my experience in their lives.

Make sense?

I think it makes sense. I think what you are saying is that you speak to them from your *me* place and don't try to super-impose your thoughts onto them as their own? I know this only because you've done it with me in real time.

Originally Posted by June

This thread bugs me. The title bugs me, and the premise bugs me.

Why do I, as a Femme have to be responsible for how anyone gets along? Why isn't it the responsibility of the individual people to make it work? No one coddles my ability to interact with or be friendly with anyone. No one has to hold my fucking hand and lead me to common ground with anyone.

And, I don't damage the relationship between Butches and Transmen. And I'm not sure what that would look like. I saw the example given of "So and so wants me to go down on him, and he's not a real man" (total paraphrase) but that is not Femme, that is bullshit human behavior setting up an invisible hierarchy and it's also, probably at its core, based on Desire. If you don't want to go down on anyone, regardless of how they ID, then don't. Don't be in a relationship with them, but for fucks sake, don't judge them for their desire just because it's different from yours.

Why do we have to be responsible for everything? Isn't it enough we're ornamental?

I am having a completely different read on this thread. I am not at all reading it as Femmes having to be responsible for how butches and trans folks get along. I am reading it as Femmes being a part of the equation though. Neither of us exist in a vacuum. Some Femmes perpetuate the chasm between Butches and Trans Folks. Some Femmes are Butch Avengers and/or Trans Avengers...always ready to leap from a tall building to speak for a Butch or Trans person. To nurture. To save.

Which in the long run doesn't really build a bridge. Or does it? What do you think?

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

It was an example, the thread was meant to let AtLastHome's thread stay on course.

I should of listened to my inner voice said fuck it and not started it. I thought it would do good.

My apologies.

I knew better.

I for one a uber grateful you started this thread. Please don't second guess.

Originally Posted by Arwen

Okay. I get what you are saying about some of this being based on desires not accepted or rejected.

Your last line...I'm going to ask. Are you going for humor?

Because I think you've hit something kind of important.

Those of us who are conditioned to be female may, in fact, have a nurtured (not nature or is it) need to be responsible for those we care for. We are often in the role of mothering (even those of us who don't have children in one way or another), I think. That can be caring for animals, even. (No peanut gallery, I don't want to hear about how your children ARE animals. smile)

Does this discussion boil down to a hunter/gatherer mentality or is there more here?

For me, I think there is more here to chew on. I think given my own initial "that's BS" reaction to the thread and original question, that I need to explore it more carefully.

What if we have a Femme in Shining Armor complex and want to ride in on our noble steed and save the day kind of thing going one?

Originally Posted by Martina

i have seen this in the past -- and in real time. Wives/girlfriends who know more about transitioning than the person who is doing it, who become activists, who pretty much talk to the doctor while their husband/boyfriend sits there. None of these activities in and of itself is appropriation. But i have definitely seen people who have taken it to that level. Not recently and not on here.
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OMG. I've seen it too. I may have even done it to some degree. Because we get in there and he just freezes up. Not because I want to appropriate....

i personally think the thread is a good idea. i think it is possible that femmes have helped build fences. i think i may have put in brick or two myself. And not out of "bullshit human behavior" or intent. So i am interested in this thread.

It's not about taking responsibility for others' relationships. It's about taking responsibility for myself and the effect i have on others.

I love your honesty.