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06-19-2010, 12:59 PM | #1 | |
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Passing - Is it a Privilege?
I began delving into passing privilege in the (very interesting and intriguing) thread about femme privilege but I think it warrants its own discussion - available to everybody in the community - because there are multiple forms of passing (or not passing) in this community.
This excerpt is from an article regarding mostly transwomen (from annelawrence.com), but I thought a lot of what was said would be relevant in a broader context as well. I really like how much of this is worded, because I think it hits on several important key points regarding the privilege of passing, and also a few points regarding the pain/disadvantages of passing. *As an aside - where are the transwomen? Do we have transfemmes or other transwomen among us here? If not, I hope they discover us at some point and that they feel welcome here.* Quote:
There's a lot here. I'm coming from a femme perspective at the moment, but I'm guessing there are a lot of perspectives here for people in this community who either pass or don't pass - and it could relate to any number of circumstances - passing or not passing for straight, lesbian, butch, femme, woman, man, cisgender, a certain race, nationality, ethinicity, religion, age, class, income-level, education level, etc. Although these are various, I think perspectives on any of them from people who do or do not pass would or could be a really meaty and interesting discussion. Also, I would love other perspectives from books or articles or interviews or blog posts or whatever it is that speaks to you regarding passing. My main question is - is it really a privilege? I don't have that answer for myself right now, (or, more accurately, I find myself alternating between "yes" and "no" and "maybe so") but I am very interested in getting a better and broader understanding.
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06-19-2010, 01:14 PM | #2 | |
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Cross-Post - more about the disadvantages of passing
I'm cross-posting this, because it probably belongs more in this thread than in the femme privilege thread, though the two issues (passing and femme privilege) overlap. I hope that's alright!
I was listening to an Outbeat Radio podcast called, "Coming out from Behind the Badge." This was a podcast about police officers both in and out of the closet, and they ended up talking about the negative side-effects of passing within the context of closeted officers. Because I feel that some of these issues do apply to passing privilege as experienced within this community, I went ahead and copied it down: Quote:
Honestly these days, I'm sick of coming out of the closet. Every aquaintanceship or friendship I begin feels like a game of double-dutch. I'm trying to figure out exactly how and when and in what way to jump in there and say, "I'm a lesbian." If it's too soon, it's out of context. If it's too late, things start feeling dishonest because I know they are assuming I am straight. It's taxing. It doesn't feel like a privilege to feel like I either have to discuss my personal life and identity with people or have them interpret and speak to me me as a straight woman. Also, as suggested in the quoted text, I don't think it's better to be exposed to homophobic remarks by people who assume I'm straight than to be the intentional target of homophobic language. If I had to choose one-for-one between the two, maybe being the direct target is worse in that it's more immediately threatening, but receiving these messages from people who assume I'm straight is more insidious, frequent and unnerving. I definitely begin to feel those messages are the true feelings of society, and overall that makes me feel less hopeful about humanity.
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06-19-2010, 01:21 PM | #3 |
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Nat, this is a great topic for discussion. I'm on my way out the door, but I'll be back to share some thoughts.
~Theo~
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06-19-2010, 02:04 PM | #4 |
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Drive by thought...
privilege can exist/does exist whether one chooses to believe it is or isn't for themselves. Is passing a privilege? depends on the context. Since my context tends to take shape from a more worldly/cosmopolitan/not-always-in-a-queer-bubble perspective, I would say, absolutely passing is a privilege, whether I want it to be or not. I like how you're bringing up a variety of intersections around the word privilege. Much luck with this thread. -Chris
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06-19-2010, 02:08 PM | #5 | |
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Thank you so much for your input! I've beena arguing with myself on this for the last few days, and I definitely see your point.
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06-19-2010, 02:23 PM | #6 |
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A note about the word "Passing" and its problematic use with transfolks -
Although it does appear (from the article I quoted) that some transfolks are fine with using the word "passing" to describe the experience of being interpreted as the gender one is, I can imagine for others that using the term "passing" in this way may seem self-negating. I met a wonderful and funny transwoman years ago at a Queer Conference down at UT Austin. She said somebody asked her once about how she felt about not passing. She said she asked that person, "Not passing as what?? I look just like a transwoman." Still, many transfolks want to be interpreted as a "man" or a "woman" without the qualifier of "trans." I'm not sure "passing" is the most accurate word for that, and I don't want to impose it on anybody who feels uncomfortable with applying that word to theirself. (<--I know this use of the word "their" is extremely awkward, but I'm experimenting with the singular, gender-neutral use of the word "they" as it's the most commonly used gender-neutral use to spring naturally from the English language (I think)). If you feel like there are privilege differences between being seen and understood as the gender you are, and *not* being seen and understood as the gender you are, please don't hesitate to contribute to this thread using whatever language suits you best. Though I am not trans and cannot speak from a trans perspective, I would imagine trans people who are interpreted 24/7 as their gender may run into more trouble at airports, at gyms, in deciding when (and if?) to come out with potential new relationships, when applying for jobs where anxieties may arise about whether your references will use your correct pronoun/name, in the event of arrest, in the event of medical emergency, and also in the event of one's death if the news gets a hold of the story and spins it in a transphobic way. I can also imagine a transperson with this experience would be privy to transphobic commentary from cisgender folks who have no clue, and that this would be insidious and damaging in its unique way. These are just some of the things I can imagine *might* be issues for transfolks who are interpreted as cisgender, but like I said, I'm not trans (in that sense) and I cannot fully know what it's like to either pass or not pass as the gender I actually feel that I am. (In fact, I never feel as though I pass as the gender I am because I am bigender). When I "pass" for straight or even cisgender, it is a case of passing as something I am not. In this way, "passing" is a very different thing for me than the "passing" described in the quote from the perspective of a transwoman.
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06-19-2010, 02:07 PM | #7 |
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Yay! I'm looking forward to reading your thoughts!
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06-19-2010, 02:35 PM | #8 |
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Thanks Nat. I was going to post in the other thread since Medusa included feminine id'd peeps but it's in the femme zone - I can't figure out who the hell can post what where so - I like it when it's spelled out for me. lol
I pass as straight. That affords me the luxury afforded to all other straight looking white women in this society. I am not discriminated for being gay - unless I am somehow outed or I out myself. People like me who NEVER would if they knew ahead of time - then when they find out - too late - they like me. As a woman I have been passed over for a promotion for specifically that reason being a woman. It happened once and I left the company. My ex and I both passed. Although people did say they were more likely to tell she was gay. Unless she was with me. lol. So we could hold hands in public and people would actually ask if we were sisters. She was Latina and brown?? We would say "Yep. We're twins!" I think it is because we were about the same size? lol. I have no idea. But it was assumed that we were not gay, just close like that. Even straight women, close friends & family will hold hands and lock arms when they are walking around. I've seen it. I never noticed any stares or backlash. I could wrap myself in rainbow ribbons, be kissing a girl at pride and someone is likely to say "Oh look, an ally!" Last year I went to NYC with a masculine looking butch. All morning people were staring at me. Of course, I thought it was because I looked fat. UNTIL someone yelled out to her something like "what up homie?" kind of snickering, trying to start shit. THEN I realized that the reason everyone had been staring at me all day is because they were now assuming I was gay. O-M-G The realization that everyone knew was just shocking to me. All of a sudden I didn't feel safe anymore. I was scared. She just laughed and said that was how it was for her every day of her life. YIKES. I didn't love it. I felt like people were judging me in a way that they didn't before. I now HAD to hold onto her because we looked more formidable together and I felt like more of a target even 5 feet from her. By the end of the day I was ok, after I realized people weren't lining up to punch me in the face. Where I live is very safe. I like going out with butches here and being seen as gay. I know where I am. I am sure nothing will happen. No one looks at you "like that." But a butch and I have to hold hands in order for me to be actually seen as gay. Because it's not uncommon to see butches here with lots of people so just walking next to each other doesn't work. The only time that invisibility really sucks for me is when I'm trying to find someone to date. I am out at work. I am brave where I'm safe. I honestly don't know how I would deal with being stared at every day all the time. I guess I won't until I'm tested. I hate snow. HATE IT. I hate driving in it, looking at it, shoveling it....but I know I'm safe here and can be gay and do things like hug, kiss, hold hands, skip up and down the street with anyone I want- whatever - and it's ok, appreciated even. Everywhere isn't like that. I have far more respect for those who live very queer looking lives in places that are unfriendly and in some cases hostile. It takes more guts then I realized. They are the ones who make life safer for me (and I think all of us) everyday in a meaningful way just by going to the grocery store and being visible. |
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06-19-2010, 04:30 PM | #9 |
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Sometimes I am read as female and sometimes male. I never know until I'm referred to as he or she. We recently sold a house. The real estate agent always referred to me as he (by the way, I never "correct" people on the use of pronouns.) Anyway, the agent, who is male, always referred to me as he. What we noticed though is that he spoke to Melissa in a different tone and manner than he talked to me.
Melissa said for the first time she realized how straight men address women differently than men. He was condescending to her but addressed me as a "buddy." At one point he called her "honey." Was he more sexist than other men? We're not sure. Do many straight men use a different tone of voice and approach to men rather than women? I don't know if I would call how he addressed me as "straight privilege" but I feel like we got to peak behind the curtain of how straight men address each other vs how they talk to women. Rufus |
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06-19-2010, 05:20 PM | #10 |
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I absolutely anticipate that once the T I am on changes my body significantly, I will pass and experience privilege. When I think about it I feel anxiety. I told my therapist that, and she said I should call people on it when they are sexist toward women and homophobic, etc. But I should at least enjoy the privilege a little. After all, most of my life I have been perceived and treated by people as a girl/woman, a lesbian, and a gender oddity. The gender oddity part I experienced as a little kid, not just since I started wearing mens clothing and cut my hair as an adult (although I definitely experience that these days too). So, should I enjoy the privilege? I don't think I will be able to, because it just seems so fucking unfair to me. But maybe I will like it, I just don't know how that will feel when it comes. If I do end up enjoying the different way I am treated, would that make me an asshole? *shakes head*
On the other hand, I really want to be out as a transguy, for political reasons. I know that gay rights in America would be greatly advanced if every gay man and woman/lesbian came out to their family/friends, etc. When people hide in the closet, they are in some way contributing to the homophobia of our society. There is shame in hiding. At the same time, I understand that there are a lot of people who's well-being and lives would be at stake if they came out, so I don't really judge or fault such people for staying in the closet. Coming out is tough, and no one should be pressured to do so. You have to be ready yourself. But the fact remains, that if more people did come out, that would be a big blow to the homophobic bigots. If people know someone who is gay or lesbian, they are less likely to stay bigoted. Not saying there is a guarantee but the likely hood is significantly reduced. I realize that some of what I am saying is controversial. I know that some people will disagree with me. That's fine. But I think it works the same way in some degree with transfolk. It is great to be treated as the gender that you feel you are inside. It is a liberating feeling. Yet, I myself want to be out as a transguy, to confront transphobia head-on. I think that if more of us weren't stealth, it would further our cause for equal rights. Yeah, I said it. We should be out if we want the same rights as cisgendered people. That means giving up privilege. I plan to do that in ways that count the most. With friends, (family already knows) and with anyone who I encounter in the world who is homophobic/transphobic. If I am able to work again, I might or might not out myself during the interview, but once I am settled into a job I won't make it a secret. This is a political choice. I make it on behalf of all my gay/lesbian/trangendered/queer brothers and sisters. Fuck privilege. I am out and proud. |
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06-19-2010, 07:36 PM | #11 | |
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My experiences are much the same.... amazing, isn't it? Interesting, as I realize that I like this dichotomy in my life (even though it can be difficult at times) because it is in sync with my internalization of female masculinity and keeps me aware of just how far we have to go! Serves as motivation. This probably is so because I am just someone that is ever involved in LGBTIQ politics as well as women's rights. Is different for everyone, I would think. |
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06-28-2010, 09:36 PM | #12 |
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Thanks for an terrific post. I agree in part (leaders of our movement do sacrifice the rights of trans people in a misguided, pragmatic and even self-hating attempt to lay a foundation for political success) and disagree (the political is personal: as a femme lesbian, I don't enjoy a privilege to pass - rather, I can elect to endure any uneasy detente the price of which is self immolation. I suppose a trans person could simply suffer living the life of the opposite gender, the one the world assigned at birth. So could we femme lesbians do that too. Is that life privledge? And if it is all about a private act in the bedroom, what does it mean when we take our lover's hand in the street because we love her? No, I would refine the argument: Attractive (not fat) apparently-gender confirming queer people are less threatening to the established order. We can choose in those moments of tacit acceptance to champion our trans brothers and sisters or we can leave them behind. Of course, when any of us is left behind, so are we all.
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06-29-2010, 04:20 PM | #13 | |
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Mirandavbrave...I don't know you, and I see that you're new to the site. So...I'll say this gently. Fat does not equal unattractive, or threatening. So...as you are championing your trans brothers and sisters so that they aren't left behind...you might want to think about including your brothers and sisters who are "fat" by your definition as well.
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06-29-2010, 04:32 PM | #14 | |
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But Like I Said, I Had A Hard Time Understanding The Whole Post, Dylan |
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06-29-2010, 05:22 PM | #15 | ||
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It would be different for me if the post read "slim, attractive, apparently-gender conforming"...but it doesn't. Quote:
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06-29-2010, 07:52 PM | #16 |
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fixing the record: fat phobia
Thanks for taking this up. I absolutely meant this as an acknowledgement of fat phobia and I am sorry it did not come clearly across. I've been quite obese and slim (roughly half my life spent in each category) and I will tell you it is as tough being fat (maybe tougher) that being an out dyke. (I use "fat" assertively, as I do "dyke' in this context.) I really was trying to say - and the parens did not communicate it as I had intended - that it is being "socially" attractive (not the eye of the beholder but the eye of social conformity) provides a significant social advantage. People with these advantages have a special chance to act politically and for justice.
Thanks for the chance to clarify. |
06-29-2010, 07:58 PM | #17 |
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Hope you see my explanation - I am new here and I am not sure my clarification posted in the right place. I was being fat positive - I meant to be, but can understand how it wasn't clear. Hope my explanatory post pops up on the thread. I am sorry that my 100% alignment with your feelings instead caused you consternation (apparently due to a badly placed parenthesis). But I appreciate the chance to explain.
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06-29-2010, 08:03 PM | #18 | |
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11-30-2011, 09:35 AM | #19 |
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04-11-2012, 07:52 PM | #20 |
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This is quite an involved thread so I'll have to read it properly later. A couple of comments struck me, about outing a trans person.
My husband no longer considers himself trans, so the idea of 'passing' is irrelevant, he is male. Unfortunately other people, including people in the workplace and close friends, have no issue with 'outing' him. It's almost as if, because he doesn't 'look' trans, some people feel the need to 'warn' others that he is not really a man, that he is trans. I hate the gossipy nature of it and the total disrespect for his identity.
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