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05-27-2010, 10:37 AM | #1 |
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The Female Male ID "Wars"... or Great Divide
I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.
If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are: -As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs? -Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID? -Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group? That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question. That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"? Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks. Thanks, Metro
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05-27-2010, 11:12 AM | #2 |
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That said as I requested to hear from butches first because I find it's better straight from the horses mouth than an observers perception, personal lens or spin on what is in the minds of butches in this context.
Sometimes I think the prob is some folks think there's a huge war and so just fly with that as to everybody's motives... I find this just adds to the problem of many butches of all ID's not being heard. Thanks again, Metro
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05-27-2010, 11:20 AM | #3 |
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YAY
If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? I do hope that this community is about inclusiviness.
-My question is, as a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs? As a woman I feel animosity towards me depending on what I say or how I feel or who I am. It goes further for me depending who I am partnered with. I am seen differently by some based on that, not all within a group. The problem I find is not in my personal ID which I purposely keep outta here as much as possible -having learned my lesson well - but in how others relate to my ID so personally. -Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID? Currently I am backing the right for insides to be recognized. I have insides and they matter to me. I have been laughed at for my insides. I have had bad things said to me, been ripped apart and ridiculed for who I am regardless of how that person who did it ID'd. I see this fight as a greater reflection of the discrimination that goes on within a minority community. It baffles me. I believe in strength in numbers and everyone celebrating who they are INSIDE. It's a rainbow thing. -Do you see any group of masculine ID's having and agenda to attack another group? The agenda that I see is to be included in all the reindeer games. For space, being recognized for who they are and a sense of community like everyone else and not seen as the enemy because they consider themselves NOT to be women. That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question. That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"? There are two main protagonists in this story. Neither one hears the other and when it starts - sigh - I personally know where it's going. Never anywhere fun either like St. Thomas.... Now, seperating out that thing they do - I think that there is in fact a war going on and one that isn't said in the open forum. Instead people call it something else in an effort to silence each other. I talk to people from here. What people's true motives are, I don't have to guess. Pleny of people do not believe that male IDs belong here. That trans, ftms, TGs - anyone who considers themselves a man -does not belong. They WANT a woman only space. They have been fighting for the right their whole lives. Well, I have been fighting my entire life too, my feelings are just as valid and I have a say. One thing I say is it's wrong to classify those who don't ID the way you do as somehow enemy friendly. Or decide who gets a pass because they embrace womanhood enough to now be a man...wtf? I don't think that people should have to pretend to be something they are not to participate and get respect. I will fight for male IDs to be here until I get told that this isn't the place for them. I felt this way on the dash site and I feel this way here - there is strength in numbers. We all need each other, no matter how badly we like to think we don't. When they come for us - they are coming for US ALL. They aren't going to ask how the fuck we ID first. No one holds some magic key that determines what butch and femme is - no one - but people sure act like they do. I know queers who have lost queer friends because of who they to partner with. This is a serious issue, imo for us individually and as a community. |
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05-27-2010, 11:51 AM | #4 | |
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I know many many female ID and woman ID butches real life for decades and on this site... I can say with 100% certainty none have ever expressed this to me, nor have we ever even spoken about male ID's. But then I don't know who you know I'm sure or if there even on this site... What I'm really interested if there's some BFP war going on, not necessarily what a person (or couple peeps) off site said. Can you perhaps point out something on this website (quotes what ever) that directly indicate someone has said this? Because I think that would need to be dealt with on an individual basis (and moderated) and doesn't have a lot to do with how the majority in any group of masculine ID's here on BFP feel. ETA: Actually even further I've never talked outside of this site with butches about female ID or what-ever...
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05-27-2010, 12:10 PM | #5 |
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05-27-2010, 12:22 PM | #6 | |
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A couple of peeps off site? hmmm. Well you can characterize it how you want, it's your thread and you know everyone...and apparently are listening in on my phone calls - odd. But ok. In fact I specifically said in my post - is it still my post? - IS that I sensed that that what was going on and that people were saying one thing and calling it another. That is what I said, speficially they are not spelling it out that way in the threads. I base that on people whom I have talked to in real time and IM and on the phone - people who I do know AND AND consider to be my friends - cuz I can be friends with people who disagree with me I'm friendly in that way - who have told me HOW THEY FELT about male IDs being on this site. How many people does that have to be to justify the existance of a undercurrent to YOU? Now I fell all bad because I thought that you - YOU METRO - actually started this thread to actually see what people were thinking about this. NICE TRAP. I didn't see that one coming and I mean it - as someone who considers you a friend. I will step out of here now and let you all get to discussing how you (the collective you - of which I don't belong to) agree with each other, how you are right and no one else has a perspective unless it fits in yours. Thanks. |
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05-27-2010, 12:43 PM | #7 | |||
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I'm sorry you feel that way and that you feel that way about me, my response to you and motives. But that's you're prerogative. *done with my derail* Metro
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05-27-2010, 12:57 PM | #8 | |
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I would love to have a real discussion about what is actually going on. I have tried to so many times - I can pull those posts - and nothing...it turns into the snowball and no one feels (IMO) that they are willing to put themselves out there in a meaningful way. So if people can just be allowed to post how they feel or what they see as they see it - imo -I hope it will work. I don't really think that overall anyone likes the great divide. In the meantime, I see that I have been "unfriended" - that speaks volumes. Have a great day. |
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05-28-2010, 01:13 AM | #9 |
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05-28-2010, 08:19 AM | #10 | |
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Except that they aren't. For me the conversation about male IDs and misogyny needs to be separate. They are completely different things. I am reading all the conversations in both threads and what I read is that there is a sense that there isn't a bigger issue and that it's just a few people who have a problem. In my mind, as I am reading those statements, I am saying "Yes, there are a few people arguing back and forth because so many MALE ID'S LEFT!" I'm not saying that THIS SITE specifically (because there is a different attitude from the ownership here entirely.) I am saying that over the years <---and I wasn't there for all the years I am exhausted just from the time I've spent...that they stopped coming around. Now, my friends of whom there are male IDs about 10 that don't come to this site or the other site anymore do not come because they don't want to fight about who they are inside constantly. When they speak up about themselves and their insides they are accused by some (not all) of misogyny or of being dismissive to women. How they feel is seen by some as a CHOICE. That they are choosing to feel the way they do on the inside in an effort to be more of a bio born man because there is something wrong with being a woman. It is a ridiculous notion for me personally because I see how separate those two things are....but because some people don't understand that - it becomes one and the same. People who chose to transition are not doing so because they want to be better then women. They are doing that so that their insides and outsides match. Young people, old people and all people in between are not choosing to be men just because it's cooler then being a woman. That sentiment is dismissive to who people are on the inside. And it is here. Right here. Right now. There are male IDs on this site who have not spoken up. I can't blame them. I am a fighter, but yesterday even I had just had it. It was too much. I think lots of people felt the same way on all sides. It is not enough for people to say that they don't do it so it's not there. I see it as no different then when our friends would say something to my ex like "Happy Cinco De Mayo" when they knew she wasn't Mexican - and she would say "I don't celebrate that, that is a Mexican holiday." And they would say "Well but you're Spanish right?" "No, I'm Venezuelan." "Same thing! You know what I mean!" Except that she didn't. OY! And, I didn't keep a tally, but that shit happened all the time. It's not exactly racism right? But it sure is dismissive of who she IS... So to say to people who feel like men on the inside that they are welcome to be here and then accuse them of some agenda or misogyny when they are in threads talking about who they are - is kinda the same thing for me. "We are your friends. We know and appreciate who you are! You are sexist and misogynistic!...well you know what I mean.." Except that they don't. So then they are stuck in the same argument of defending themselves for how they feel inside. Being a male ID has nothing at all to do with wanting to be superior to women. It isn't about being more "hetronormative" and seeing that as superior to queerdom. SOME people will see what they want to see no matter what people say... LOTS of people no longer engage in these discussions. I am sure that everyone is tired of it. I know that I am. I know that I am sick of people taking other people's ID's as a personal attack on women or female IDs. I sure got sick real fast of defending my personal ID over and over. Or having to explain why I was a butch and why my version of butch wasn't femme or that I was somehow butch enough to be butch?? In fact, I stopped engaging in all discussions about that for myself. I can't keep justifying and fighting for my insides to people that are making arguments about what it means to me based on who they are inside. And don't even get me started on the PMs based on how I look. (which happened all the time on the dash site) Ugh. And in that way I am silenced. In the same way I see male IDs being silenced. People can say "Well, that's on you! Don't let anyone silence you!" Ahhh, and they are right. That for me is a choice. One that I needed to make for myself so that I didn't go to bed crying every night because of who I am being misunderstood when what I wanted so desperately to be understood by someone somewhere. It's shitty when it happens in real time or online. And it happens. It's real. It sucks. As for the people who say privately that they want it to be a women only space, they also are not speaking up. I would rather people just say it out loud so we can deal with that. I would never call them out individually. I consider these people my friends too. I just don't happen to agree with them. That is probably the toughest stand to take in all of this. And no one wants to lose friendships as a result of how they personally feel. The group is powerful as a body. To risk exclusion is also powerful, regardless of who you are, what you believe or how you ID. As for the facebook thing - that actually wasn't a personal thing. I still like Metro and her art. lol. I believe that it was all an issue of bad timing. And even tho she thought I didn't pay attention to her posts - I have paid attention to her posts long enough over a year to know that she's not an asshole. This is a hot topic for those of us trying to engage in a meaningful way. Which I can say that Metro does and for that I am grateful. |
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05-27-2010, 11:33 AM | #11 | |
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05-27-2010, 11:47 AM | #12 |
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When I have spoken up, there does seem to be animosity tossed at me and I have felt silenced. I have often seen it happen to others and it's not just from one particular ID either. It's just too damn sad it happens. I hate infighting and I think it's just fucked up it happens. I tend not to engage in it anymore, it's pointless because no one can hear you but your own damn ears.
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Nothing more, Nothing less, I'm Just Being Me Last edited by JustBeingMe; 05-27-2010 at 11:47 AM. Reason: ETA: and it's not just happening online, it's happend to me in Real Time. |
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05-27-2010, 12:05 PM | #13 | ||
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Bull I guess you already answered that. I guess my main thing is I feel like entire groups are being thrown under the bus for the sins of a few. Instead of addressing the offensive posts, or individuals by quoting and responding to them directly... it's being blamed on the entirety of the ID. Maybe we could heat things up a lot less if we addressed people instead of entire groups on that. We are all people here, all different upbringings, cultures and history and my ID doesn't define my heart, soul or beliefs...
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05-27-2010, 12:12 PM | #14 | |
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I do not attack male ids. I do strongly speak out against male defaults. To me there is a huge difference between the two.
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05-27-2010, 01:03 PM | #15 | |
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It mostly has come from ID's online that were not woman or female, and a few femmes. In real life it has come from femmes and from male ID'd butches. I sometimes think it was an intolerance issue for my ID, I honestly don't know the truth behind it because I refused to engage it because it's BS to me. It's also BS to me to do any sort of Posturing between different ID's.
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05-27-2010, 01:09 PM | #16 |
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Betenoire, just for the record, there are other ID"s that have gone into threads that didn't ID as woman or female and started a rant on their own ID blah blah blah. It's not just this site. I have seen it many many many times on the dash site, where someone starts a Woman thread and someone else comes in and starts off ranting in a thread where it's not addressing their ID and hell begins on the internet.
Bully knows this first hand as well as I too. ETA: Hell it has happened in butch bonding threads for all butches to come into and bond together. Just sayin......it happens all over the threads. Do I see it stopping? Hell no. I don't. I wish it would but it's not going to.
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Nothing more, Nothing less, I'm Just Being Me Last edited by JustBeingMe; 05-27-2010 at 01:11 PM. Reason: ETA: |
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05-27-2010, 12:08 PM | #17 | |
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I have seen you (and others - but since I'm responding to you I'm going to talk about you) go into threads that are not about being a woman...and start talking about being a woman. TO ME it feels...weird*. And other people -have- said to me that they feel like you (and the other people who do this) are doing it to silence them. I have no problem with you talking about being a woman. I have no problem with you talking about misogyny you have experienced or seen other people experience. But I really think you would be better heard if you would pick your platforms more wisely. I get that there is a subtext wherein Butch Women and/or Female Butches were shit on at the "other" site. But can we maybe start fresh and not always behave as though we are waiting for that to happen? EDIT - I figured out what phrase I was looking for above when I said "weird". The phrase was "right message, wrong place".
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05-27-2010, 12:16 PM | #18 | |
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I think this site has given us a fresh start to a certain degree, but the old attitudes seem to still be there. However, I do sense, overall, more general goodwill to trying to be more respectful to each other as well.
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05-27-2010, 12:57 PM | #19 | |
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I have been politely, and in some cases not so politely, been told to "tone" it down. Don't talk about being a woman so much, or qualify it so that everyone is certain that not all butches are women. I've never heard anyone tell a femme not to talk about being a woman. My question to the general audience is why does it make you so uncomfortable for butches to talk about being a woman? If you happen to find it "off topic" in the future, perhaps you (the general you) can address it then.
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05-27-2010, 12:03 PM | #20 |
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[QUOTE=Metropolis;115382]I feel absolutely no animosity toward butches of any ID. I feel like all masculine ID's here, female ID, male ID, butch woman, TG, etc all have the right to be exactly who they want without being questioned about it... just as I do.
If I'm not mistaken that's what the community is about right? My questions are: -As a butch of whatever ID, do you feel animosity towards (entire groups) of other butch IDs? No -Do you see yourself or ID as being at "war" with another ID? No -Do you see any group of masculine ID's having an agenda to attack another group? No That said I often see when (insert any butch ID) speaks about themselves or issues with what-ever it sometimes taken as an affront to others ID. Often by people who don't even ID as either in question. That is a problem I do see often, is this the reason for the perception of a ID war"? Serious sometimes I feel stupid because I'm not seeing it, and I'm not feeling invisible to, attacked or dismissed by any other group of masculine ID folks. Thanks, Metro I don't see the attacks, I don't get them personally, I used to on another site, but not here, which is one reason I am here. Thing is the same folks who used to be at the other site are here as well, so something has changed. I think that Jack and Medusa have made it clear that attacking folks for who they are is not acceptable, and I for one welcome that. Met, you have always had my back, and been a supporter of me, and I appreciate you for this. I just don't understand the whole "war" concept, and if folks can't accept each other for who they are, then what kind of community can there be.
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