Child Brides - Tradition or State Sanctioned Rape?

[Medusa]

I found this article on CNN this morning about a 12-year old girl who died from internal bleeding after the consummation of her marriage to a person at least twice her age.

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/...ex.html?hpt=T2


I am naturally pretty sickened by this.

I am wondering if other folks feel that this is a form of state-sanctioned rape or if our experiences as Americans cause us to look at the tradition of "forced marriage" or "child brides" this way instead of as the traditions belonging to another country.
I am thinking about some of the "child bride" issues we have going on in our own country with the LDS folks and some other religious sects and thinking that at least in America, I would view this as an issue of rape.

This question might also tie in with the practice of female genital mutilation and how we view it here as opposed to how its viewed in the countries it is practiced in.

Curious about people's thoughts on this.

[EnderD_503]

I think that the way the tradition of child brides over there is viewed is probably divided. While I was living in Europe I remember watching a news programme that was talking about a young girl in India, if I recall correctly, who tried to bring attention to the child bride tradition. Apparently she took part in an Indian tv show where one of the main themes was bringing awareness to the issue, and she apparently spoke out against it on more than one occasion. Apparently since the controversy things went downhill for her, but it does demonstrate that there are some young Indian girls trying to oppose the tradition.

While I obviously have no idea, never having lived in an affected nation, I would imagine, judging from that controversy, that some view it as a valuable cultural tradition, while others view it as an oppressive tradition that sanctions rape, just like that young Indian girl does. I'll see if I can find an article or video clip that talks about her.

Under our definition of rape, it certainly is rape, but when we consider that comparable traditions used to exist in the west (and again realising how words and their meanings change through time and according to tradition) as well it's difficult to slap a label on a tradition that wasn't formed within our time period, or coming from the same perspective that we are today. As wishywashy and subjective as all this sounds, I really do think it depends on which perspective you're coming from. Which doesn't mean that I personally don't see it as sanctioned rape, but I do think that's something to consider. My personal opinion is that it is rape, that it's an infringement upon the sovereignty of the individual and, as such, I am entirely opposed to it and do hope that those fighting to change the laws that allow it win out.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I think that the way the tradition of child brides over there is viewed is probably divided. While I was living in Europe I remember watching a news programme that was talking about a young girl in India, if I recall correctly, who tried to bring attention to the child bride tradition. Apparently she took part in an Indian tv show where one of the main themes was bringing awareness to the issue, and she apparently spoke out against it on more than one occasion. Apparently since the controversy things went downhill for her, but it does demonstrate that there are some young Indian girls trying to oppose the tradition.

While I obviously have no idea, never having lived in an affected nation, I would imagine, judging from that controversy, that some view it as a valuable cultural tradition, while others view it as an oppressive tradition that sanctions rape, just like that young Indian girl does. I'll see if I can find an article or video clip that talks about her.

Under our definition of rape, it certainly is rape, but when we consider that comparable traditions used to exist in the west (and again realising how words and their meanings change through time and according to tradition) as well it's difficult to slap a label on a tradition that wasn't formed within our time period, or coming from the same perspective that we are today. As wishywashy and subjective as all this sounds, I really do think it depends on which perspective you're coming from. Which doesn't mean that I personally don't see it as sanctioned rape, but I do think that's something to consider. My personal opinion is that it is rape, that it's an infringement upon the sovereignty of the individual and, as such, I am entirely opposed to it and do hope that those fighting to change the laws that allow it win out.

I'm glad that you brought up your time living in Europe, Ender! I'd be curious to know what Europeans thought of the LDS issue that was happening over here in America (last summer? or before?). I think I sometimes forget that its not as polar as America v the rest of the world. Damn that American-centrism!

I believe personally that it is rape as well but I also have value for traditions and cultures in other countries. I keep thinking about how very Patriarchal a lot of societies across the world are and how that might give weight to women being seen as "less powerful", as "property", and especially in this discussion, how "child brides" might be considered a "right" for some men.
I know it isnt as simple as pointing at the Patriarchy for everything, especially with religious interweaving.

I'll also have to admit my ignorance on just how widespread or ingrained the child bride industry is across the world. Need to do some reading on this one.

Thanks for the discussion! This stuff feeds my soul

[apretty]

this film by female director Deepah Mehta is stunningly beautiful and completely heart-breaking... and well worth the watch, on the subject of 'child brides' (and child widows!) in 1938 India.




(controversy on filming 'water' which was eventually filmed in Sri Lanka: http://www.brightlightsfilm.com/28/water.php)

more on child-brides/widows: http://www.kamat.com/kalranga/women/widows/

[Lynn]

It's one thing to value and preserve the customs and traditions of a culture. I think it's really important to respect the past and take care not to impose our own ethnocentric values on another culture. At the same time, some things are just abjectly wrong, and can be applied to humanity. In my opinion, I guess I shoud add. I feel that it is kind of a smokescreen to say that this (the degradation and murder of women and children) is "our custom," "our tradition," or even, "our religion." I have a difficult time seeing these abuses as anything other than a deliberate, calculated effort to suppress the strength and power of women. Cloaking it in the guise of religion or tradition confuses the matter and makes it difficult to remedy without increasing the violence. Some things should be preserved and sustained, but not practices which degrade, maim, disempower, or kill women and children.

[Andrew, Jr.]

Personally, I think of child brides as rape victims - it really bothers me, but that is because of my culture, not theirs. It is like the Japanese women who want to be geisha's, and their families hand them over to a "house" for being raised.

I have a very good friend of mine who traveled to Japan after he graduated from Yale. He felt that he needed to be involved with a missionary. In the end he returned back to the states. His involvement was with trying to stop child brides and their tradition of geisha's and training. It failed. It is that culture, and that tradition. Nobody or a group or whatever can intervene and stop something that is cultural or traditional to that area. It is what it is. No matter if we like it or not. Anyway the US is hung up on sex as it is.

[Lynn]

I hear you, Andrew.

I respect your friend's desire to change the system. His failure to do so, however, doesn't mean that he wasn't doing the right thing. Marrying off children, who suffer physically and mentally, is wrong. I think objecting to children having sex with grown men is not a cultural "hang up," but a matter of right vs. wrong.

[Words]

Originally Posted by Medusa

I am wondering if other folks feel that this is a form of state-sanctioned rape or if our experiences as Americans cause us to look at the tradition of "forced marriage" or "child brides" this way instead of as the traditions belonging to another country.

The US, in spite of having laws that make having sex with a minor a criminal offence, has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the entire industrialized world with a not insignificant number of pregnancies involving girls as young as ten or eleven.

Perhaps, then, while we're expressing our outrage - again - at what happens in the Middle East, we could ask ourselves why it is that it's the 'state sanctioned' aspect of certain things that we find so abominable and worthy of discussion and not 'the things' themselves.

Words

[AtLast]

When I look at this, I am mindful of what may be culture-bound. However, the numbers of women joining forces worldwide to fight against these kinds of things is not lost on me. If they want change and are the one's subjected to this, I think their cause is something to support.

As much as I get pissed at how the US can be so cavilier about things that apply to other cultures, I am not casting a blind eye to social movements of those that are directly affected by these kinds of situations. That, to me, is simply keeping my head in the sand.

Further, when the hell is the US going to deal with illegal underage marriage (and rape) within religiously sanctioned groups? LDS offshoots are alive and well in the US! There are others.

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by Words

The US, in spite of having laws that make having sex with a minor a criminal offence, has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the entire industrialized world with a not insignificant number of pregnancies involving girls as young as ten or eleven.

Perhaps, then, while we're expressing our outrage - again - at what happens in the Middle East, we could ask ourselves why it is that it's the 'state sanctioned' aspect of certain things that we find so abominable and worthy of discussion and not 'the things' themselves.

Words

Words, good questions. I think the US teen pregnancy rate has a lot to do with sex ed (or lack of it) in schools; with the fact that abortion is not covered by most health insurance companies, that millions in America have little access to either money for an abortion or an abortion clinic, and that teens sometimes choose to get pregnant for a variety of reasons. Abortion in the US is very stigmatized. It is framed primarily as a moral issue rather than a women's health issue.

The recent murder of an abortion doctor doesn't help the stigma.

Some states require teens to get parental consent for an abortion or require parental notification. Parents can then block access to the abortion. The religious right holds a lot of sway here and often controls the debate on abortion and contraception.

Its interesting though that the UK has the highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe [although still much lower than the US). What are some of the theories for this? Is abortion/contraception covered by the NHS?

Rufus

[Martina]

The Quran says that women have a right to choose their own husbands.

The Yemeni cases have been appalling. There have been cases of girls raised in Britain who know little about Yemeni culture -- visiting their fathers or their grandparents in Yemen -- and being kept against their wishes and married to old men.

i have a Master's degree in Anthropology. The cultural relativism arguments have been drilled into me. I also know that we are at war in so many ways with traditional cultures, many of which are Muslim, and much of the politics behind that "war" are not mine. But i don't care. DON'T CARE. These are human rights violations. It is 2010 for all the world everywhere. Ruining people's bodies, minds, and spirits -- i don't care if your culture falls apart because of it, but end it.

If the Aztecs were still doing human sacrifice daily, i think the world would have something to say about it.

Women in the Middle East are working to stop these atrocities. We should support them.

i love Nicholas Kristof of the New York Times, who co-wrote Half the Sky. He helps women around the world tell their stories. He came to these stories with no ax to grind, no personal investment. He was just a reporter, and he couldn't turn away when he saw what was happening. i love people like that.

[Gemme]

Years and years ago, it wasn't uncommon for girls to marry early and move out of their family's home here. Of course, that was because age 14 was not the same as it is now. Fourteen then is like 25 or 26 (guessimate) now, due to living longer and all of the lovely improvements and progress we've made along the way. For the most part, we've adapted our level of what is and is not an acceptable age for a girl to enter into marriage according to our growth and progress as a nation and as individuals, including the fact that we simply live longer, so there's more time to reproduce and provide for our families now.

A lot of countries haven't had the opportunities that the U.S. has had to improve the lifespans of the inhabitants. Part of me wants to fall in line with the 'but it's their CULTURE' crowd and part of me wants to acknowledge that many of those countries would be run very differently if they had access to all that we do here. Part of me also wants to turn vigilante and beat the shit out of anyone and everyone who's ever hurt a child, be it male or female. That's my shit to own and figure out how to cease and desist, though.

I started out with a clear vision of what I wanted to say, but I'm at work and a bit distracted and I suppose I haven't anything really to add to the discussion, I guess. *shrug*

[Words]

Originally Posted by Rufusboi

Its interesting though that the UK has the highest teen pregnancy rate in Europe [although still much lower than the US). What are some of the theories for this? Is abortion/contraception covered by the NHS?

Rufus

What's going on now isn't so much a battle against teenage pregnancy - I rather think that the powers that be have given up on that one - but one against sexually transmitted diseases, especially chlamydia, with the condom being touted as the weapon of choice. Magazines, TV, radio, the ads are literally all over the place and I know from the conversations I had with my 18-year-old son that they are having an impact. I would imagine that in the old days, boys his age were afraid of getting a girl pregnant and it was that fear that motivated them to wear condoms. Now, on the other hand, it seems to be the fear of 'catching something' that motivates them to - as our beloved (not) Jeremy Kyle (the UK version of Jerry Springer) puts it so eloquently - ''put something on the end of it,'' which they're able to do fairly easily thanks to the fact that any male under the of 25 can go to his local sexual health clinic and apply for a card, the presenting of which entitles him to walk into any local pharmacy and request as many condoms as he requires. (I said ''any male'' but I'm not sure if there's a lower age limit - I'll have to check it out. Same re. legislation concerning abortion.)

What about in the States, anything similar there?

Words

[Toughy]

the only places I have ever seen free condoms is in most gay boy/leather bars..........and a few dyke bars....while I don't frequent straight bars, the rare times I have been in one there were no condoms anywhere or any info on safer sex.

I have no idea if free condoms are available on request in public schools........my guess is nope not gonna happen even in San Francisco..

Remember........in the US......Kansas teaches 'creation science' as a viable alternative to evolution in the public schools.....kids can opt out of 'sex education' everywhere.......public school textbooks in many places call this country a 'christian nation' and write Jefferson (the 2nd President) out of our textbooks along with LBJ, FDR, MLK and probably Obama in a few years.

[Martina]

They are not available in my school. We used to have a health clinic bus that stopped by once a month, and kids could get them from them. But they stopped coming by.

[Toughy]

Concerning the topic of this thread.........

I have absolutely no patience or rationalization for any culture/society/group/religion that refuses to allow girls and women (and boys and men) autonomy. Patriarchy is the scourge of this world and the root cause of racism, sexism, homophobia and war.

Like it or not..............monotheism is the root of this......the God of Abraham (Judiasm, Christianity, Islam) is the root of patriarchy and all that entails.

No girl, boy, woman, or man should be bought or sold as chattel to another person in the form of marriage or servitude. Using religion/culture as the excuse is barbaric and must be stopped all over the world.

[Rufusboi]

Originally Posted by Words

What's going on now isn't so much a battle against teenage pregnancy - I rather think that the powers that be have given up on that one - but one against sexually transmitted diseases, especially chlamydia, with the condom being touted as the weapon of choice. Magazines, TV, radio, the ads are literally all over the place and I know from the conversations I had with my 18-year-old son that they are having an impact. I would imagine that in the old days, boys his age were afraid of getting a girl pregnant and it was that fear that motivated them to wear condoms. Now, on the other hand, it seems to be the fear of 'catching something' that motivates them to - as our beloved (not) Jeremy Kyle (the UK version of Jerry Springer) puts it so eloquently - ''put something on the end of it,'' which they're able to do fairly easily thanks to the fact that any male under the of 25 can go to his local sexual health clinic and apply for a card, the presenting of which entitles him to walk into any local pharmacy and request as many condoms as he requires. (I said ''any male'' but I'm not sure if there's a lower age limit - I'll have to check it out. Same re. legislation concerning abortion.)

What about in the States, anything similar there?

Words

Free condoms, no. Condoms can be purchased just about anywhere, including gas stations and wal mart. Like some others said, I see them given out at gay bars and gay pride. Maybe planned parenthood clinics give them out for free, but I'm not sure. Possibly county health clinics perhaps, not sure though. Condoms in schools are pretty much a no no I think. Some schools won't even let the school nurse give any kind of contraceptive information out, let alone condoms.

But as for fighting STDs, I don't even remember the last time I saw a public health Ad on TV for AIDS let alone anything else. There was a lot of info on HPV for a while and then a big fuss over requiring girls to get the HPV vaccine (some stupid parents said it would encourage underage sex; I'm not sure how they linked an HPV vaccine to promoting sex but contortions of logic are not unusual).

Rufus

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Words

The US, in spite of having laws that make having sex with a minor a criminal offence, has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in the entire industrialized world with a not insignificant number of pregnancies involving girls as young as ten or eleven.

Perhaps, then, while we're expressing our outrage - again - at what happens in the Middle East, we could ask ourselves why it is that it's the 'state sanctioned' aspect of certain things that we find so abominable and worthy of discussion and not 'the things' themselves.

Words

You make a good point. There is an article in this week's Time Magazine about the Catholic Church, saying the fact that there are so few women in the hierarchy has meant that they have had a very different (and lesser) interest in child welfare. That's a western institution.

i think that the U.S. is not a bastion of human rights. So not. Look at our prisons. We allow amazing amounts of child poverty. Child prostitution is rampant. Yes, we need to look at ourselves too.

That should not stop us from calling murder, rape and oppression what they are wherever they are.

This is a link to Nicholas Kristof's page on the NYTimes.

LINK

Here is one to a brief piece on Yemen - a few days before the other story broke, i think. LINK

[Nat]

I think when a child or adult is forced to have sex, it is rape. I think that when a child or adult is basically sold to another person, forced to be legally bound to that person, forced to have sex with that person, it is sexual slavery. If it were just a question of age of consent, I could go with cultural relativist arguments more easily. I'm glad the state of Texas took all those kids away from that polygamist cult that was marrying young girls off to adult men.

Hundreds of Yemeni women did show up outside Yemen's parliament to support a law stating the minimum age for girls to marry to be set at 17 (for girls) and 18 (for boys). linky

The statistics regardng sexual abuse/assault of children in the US vary, but it's in no way uncommon. People just don't have to marry their victims here to gain access to them.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Nat

I think when a child or adult is forced to have sex, it is rape. I think that when a child or adult is basically sold to another person, forced to be legally bound to that person, forced to have sex with that person, it is sexual slavery. If it were just a question of age of consent, I could go with cultural relativist arguments more easily. I'm glad the state of Texas took all those kids away from that polygamist cult that was marrying young girls off to adult men.

Hundreds of Yemeni women did show up outside Yemen's parliament to support a law stating the minimum age for girls to marry to be set at 17 (for girls) and 18 (for boys). linky

The statistics regardng sexual abuse/assault of children in the US vary, but it's in no way uncommon. People just don't have to marry their victims here to gain access to them.

The children were given back, and the cult is still practicing. Our republic is no better than any other that permits this. For me, until we as a Nation can come at this problem with clean hands, we have no standing with other countries to prohibit what their culture does. Yes, I personally find it rape, abuse and disgusting inhuman behavior. Yet my personal beliefs hold no water in any other country. I am not a diplomat, and I have no standing to force my beliefs on another. I do not condone any of it.
Just my .02