What makes me butch?

[Darth Denkay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it seems as though we have this conversation ad nauseum, and I guess we do. In any case, here's what I have been wondering...

On the one hand, we describe our identity - butch - as masculine (regardless of how we identify beyond that, i.e. female, lesbian). So being butch encompasses things that are seen as "masculine". But then we are adamant that we are not masculine stereotypes. It really feels as though sometimes we want to be masculine in the good ways, but not in the bad ways or in the ways that just don't match us. So how do we describe our identity? What is it based on? Concepts of masculinity but NOT stereotypes? Aren't concepts of masculinity stereotypes themselves?

Thoughts?

[Corkey]

Well, I'm not a lesbian, and don't consider myself a female, so am I still Butch? For me yes. I have a female body, but who I am isn't defined by what I look like.
Stereotypes are everywhere. I don't think any label is going to fit every body. The more we as a community try to define, the more we divide.
My .02

[Jett]

I'm me and that's that... stereotypes are stereotypes and I try not to pay much attention to them... masculine or butch.

With that I think there's a big difference between "want to be" and what we just are... what we are is always just that, what we call it may be more in line with just what we see it as.

I call myself a butch because butch I think of as queered masculinity and I believe that's altogether a different thing than stereotypical masculinity. I feel it inside me as an energy that wants to come outward and not as something I'm taking into me from outside cues.

I don't emulate "the masculine stereotype" because butch to me doesn't mean being as "historical/traditionally masculine" as you possibly can, yes I open doors and pull out chairs but you would't catch me dead with a hairy lip or letting my brows go to caterpillar status even know perhaps some would see that as more masculine... but I don't give a crap what anyone thinks... because I'm not a stereotype.

IMO butch masculinity comes more in the heart than the head... it's not something you aspire to or look to anything or anyone else for, it just is what it is the way it is.

Metro

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm me and that's that... stereotypes are stereotypes and I try not to pay much attention to them... masculine or butch.

With that I think there's a big difference between "want to be" and what we just are... what we are is always just that, what we call it may be more in line with just what we see it as.

I call myself a butch because butch I think of as queered masculinity and I believe that's altogether a different thing than stereotypical masculinity. I feel it inside me as an energy that wants to come outward and not as something I'm taking into me from outside cues.

I don't emulate "the masculine stereotype" because butch to me doesn't mean being as "historical/traditionally masculine" as you possibly can, yes I open doors and pull out chairs but you would't catch me dead with a hairy lip or letting my brows go to caterpillar status even know perhaps some would see that as more masculine... but I don't give a crap what anyone thinks... because I'm not a stereotype.

IMO butch masculinity comes more in the heart than the head... it's not something you aspire to or look to anything or anyone else for, it just is what it is the way it is.

Metro

As usual, your words are right on the money, at least in describing how I feel, am.

So to answer the question, what makes me butch? I would have to say that every cell in my body makes me so, in as far as to what Butch means to me.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm me and that's that... stereotypes are stereotypes and I try not to pay much attention to them... masculine or butch.

With that I think there's a big difference between "want to be" and what we just are... what we are is always just that, what we call it may be more in line with just what we see it as.

I call myself a butch because butch I think of as queered masculinity and I believe that's altogether a different thing than stereotypical masculinity. I feel it inside me as an energy that wants to come outward and not as something I'm taking into me from outside cues.

I don't emulate "the masculine stereotype" because butch to me doesn't mean being as "historical/traditionally masculine" as you possibly can, yes I open doors and pull out chairs but you would't catch me dead with a hairy lip or letting my brows go to caterpillar status even know perhaps some would see that as more masculine... but I don't give a crap what anyone thinks... because I'm not a stereotype.

IMO butch masculinity comes more in the heart than the head... it's not something you aspire to or look to anything or anyone else for, it just is what it is the way it is.

Metro

Yup, your thoughts here speak to me. Looks like to others, too. And there will be more ideas put forth. Which is why, even when I have been totally frustrated with issues of butch identity, I know that there are going to be varied ways of how we all present as butch. Yes, from the heart fits.

I can't believe that when I came back online to see what has been discussed, that you, Met, had talked about hair - chin & eyebrows!! Just yesterday, as I was pluckin' and shaving my legs, I was thinking about why I do so and had some stereotypic butch stuff go through my mind. Brought me back to my coming-out as a butch (later than of lot of butches) and things I used to feel about this not being very butch of me. Fuck that shit!

I am so glad I moved past this and just take it for what it is- what I personally prefer. Other butches feel differently. Kind of funny, really as one of the reasons I shave my legs has to do with muscles being more defined. I got so much negative BS as a girl-kid about having muscular legs from outside of my family, shaving them was kind of an act of rebellion for me, not having a thing to do with it being something that pre-teen girls do. I remember a doctor (male) telling me during a pap-test exam when I was in college (and still hetero) that I should stop racing bicycles because my legs were too muscular for a girl!! Yeppers, stereotypes suck! What is also interesting about this is that my Mom always complimented my legs because they were strong, like your Dad's (he was a pro cyclist when they courted and sparked and trained me). I had almost a reversed experience with this than I hear from many other butches that were involved in athletics (and their experiences way suck, too) . So weird. Now, due to back surgeries (atrophy from nerve damage) and not able to be as active as when I was younger, I have lost some of the muscle tone, but still have some damn leg and thigh muscles (sorta)- and I'm gonna let them show! Dammit, hence, the leg hair goes!!! Geeesssuuuussss!

I think honing in on the whole stereotype area is great in a thread. They have slapped us around a lot in different ways. So, looking at them from our own perspective of how we view our unique butch identities is really interesting. Just as is the butch-femme dynamic is in its entirety and evolution! Can’t wait to read more……

[AtLast]

What defines me as butch really has nothing to do with gender roles or gender in and of itself, concepts of female or male (masculine or feminine). Its about values, attitudes, historical perspectives, and a personal spiritual sense. Feminism, being female and lesbian just fit for me. Just don't for others. Also, my feelings about the range of bujtch identity includes admiration for those that are able to cut through patriarchal concepts and simply be without trying to oppress what butch means to others.

Thinking that my arriving at a peaceful space with butch does have a lot to do with being able to read and sift through all of the discussions that websites like this offer. Sure, there is disagreement among us, but where would we be if we didn’t look at what we all feel define us as butch?

What I have learned by many of you, is that I had to stretch my thinking, do research, and just listen to ideas. I just can’t throw out some arbitrary definition of butch (or femme, for that matter) or put anyone into any particular box. Sometimes this is difficult when I have had some swipes taken at my own brand of butch. I have certainly had defense-mode moments. However, these have become less and less as I just try to understand how really fluid butch (and femme) identity is. No way is butch a one definition fits all concept! And I don't need it to be.

Overall, I have just become more focused on how we can combat the stereotyping of our entire queer community as the outside world views it. Queer for me includes every single identity among us. And there is so much to accomplish out there with things life ENDA, same-sex marriage, homophobia , transphobia, along with all the usual anti-lesbian, gay, bi, BDSM, (what am I forgetting?) bigotry out there.

I don’t care about how someone identifies themselves. I do care that we (me included) have gone at each other in ways that do divide us and just don’t help with the real struggles that we need to deal with like incidences of violence (on-going hate crimes) against our people within the umbrella community of queers.

For me, the best thing to happen within this community has been to be taken to task at times. Hell, I now have connected in genuine ways with folks that I did so much battle with! Why? Because I finally went to the real source of conflict - myself. Sure, I’m going to take issue with posts at times, but not without trying to simply understand the things that are the most difficult for me to.

Be the butch you want to be…………. The has not served us well.

[Rockinonahigh]

Well Id make a mighty ugly femme no doubt about it.Im who I am by looks and actions,I dont have to prove a thing to anyone at any time,I shure dont need a label put on me by anyone..if its not your cup of tea dont pick it up.

[Darth Denkay]

Thanks for the responses. And to be clear, I'm definitely not searching for the definition of butch. I'm not looking to create a one-size-fits-all box for butch. Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity? There are certain attributes that tend to be ascribed to those words; when do those attributes cease to be true descriptors and become stereotypes? I get that butch masculinity comes from within, it's not something we put on from the outside; it is our essence.

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

Thanks for the responses. And to be clear, I'm definitely not searching for the definition of butch. I'm not looking to create a one-size-fits-all box for butch. Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity? There are certain attributes that tend to be ascribed to those words; when do those attributes cease to be true descriptors and become stereotypes? I get that butch masculinity comes from within, it's not something we put on from the outside; it is our essence.

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

What makes a human, human.

[Down2marsboi]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

Thanks for the responses. And to be clear, I'm definitely not searching for the definition of butch. I'm not looking to create a one-size-fits-all box for butch. Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity? There are certain attributes that tend to be ascribed to those words; when do those attributes cease to be true descriptors and become stereotypes? I get that butch masculinity comes from within, it's not something we put on from the outside; it is our essence.

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

Yes, I AGREE that ones BUTCH SELF is not only EMcompassed by CHARACTERISTICS but most IMPORTANTLY by ones OWN sense of butchness...your INTERNAL ESSENCE meter so to SPEAK. I FEEL that characteristics BECOME STEROTYPES when people start to BELIEVE that you are a way SIMPLY become you possess a characteric that COMMONLY is associated with a way of BEING. Butchness to me is INTERNAL...Masculinity, Crewcuts, Male SWAGGER, jeans, aggression, etc...are some characterisics usually associated with Butchness from ole school means...this is what the WORLD saw as being a DIfferent essence, back in the day and has STUCK...as people who SELF PROCLAIM as being butch...and all the different energies and appearance become more PREVALENT...then to SHALL the steroyypes I think BEGAN to FALL.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two?

I am sick to death of gender identity discussions, but your question is salient and worth considering.

My answer:
Stereotypes begin at the moment a person's perceptions, narrow-mindedness, or ignorance is used to define others without the inclusion of the possibilities, beliefs, or experiences that supersede such definitions.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

...Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity?

...Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

To me, masculinity and femininity are presentations, or representations, of the same energy, but differently.

I know...clear as mud.

Identical twins. Same appearance but often VERY different personalities. Butch and femme are like identical twins for me. Same energy, split equally and presented differently.

Stereotypes exist because of the same characteristics being shown, over and over again. Often, they are one and the same. The icky part kicks in when the stereotype becomes a caricature.

[Bit]

I was curious, so I went back and re-read Kayden's opening post. When he says:

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

. So how do we describe our identity? What is it based on? Concepts of masculinity but NOT stereotypes? Aren't concepts of masculinity stereotypes themselves?

I interpret that to mean he is looking not for a discussion about any one individual's personal identity, but a discussion about the ideas of "butch" and "masculine" and how they get expressed in our community without triggering common stereotypes. I read his question as asking if that's possible, or if the ideas of masculinity are already stereotypes; and it seems to me that he is asking not about any one individual's personal identity, but about general categories of identity--masculine, in particular.

I get it that sometimes people feel like they're being put on the spot in gender and identity discussions, and I understand that it gets old feeling like a person has to "defend" themselves... but I think that feeling usually happens because of misunderstandings. We don't all read other people's posts in the same way; sometimes something that seems crystal clear to someone is not actually what the poster meant.

Sometimes we struggle pretty hard to find the words to say what we mean--and I know I fail pretty often at that! It's especially hard when it's ideas I've never put into words before.

Sometimes we have such different experiences in life that what someone else posts just plain flat makes no sense to another person, and that's happened to me, too, not just as the person who doesn't understand but also as the person who is not understood.

These are the difficulties of having these kinds of conversations online.

Every difficulty, though, has a benefit. The benefit of this struggle to say what we mean in a way that others can understand--and get what we truly meant, in the way we meant it--especially when we're trying to talk about things we've never had the words for before, is that we all have a chance to see gender identities (again, not individual people's gender identities, but "gender identities" as a category) in new or expanded ways.

I would not be the person I am today if I hadn't had the benefit of this kind of discussion several times over the years. Reading what others had to say and then figuring out if it fit my life or not brought me peace with my own identity and helped me to feel like I was part of a real community.

To answer Kayden's question about masculinity and stereotypes, I think our current b-f community ideas about masculinity are partly based on stereotypes, and I think that's unavoidable. Just saying the word "masculine" brings up instant stereotypical images. It's supposed to; that's what words do. It's like an icon that we click in our brains to open a program, yanno? It's supposed to do that.

The value I find in conversations like this is that we can go beyond those images; the icon may open the program Masculinity 1.0, but our conversations can update it to Masculinity 1.2, or 2.6, 3.0... who knows how far we can update the program if we're willing to keep talking? And so even though it's a struggle to find words that others will understand, and even though after all these years I still cannot articulate completely what "masculine" or "butch" might be even when I do have the words, and even though I know I will more than likely fail again each time I try, I still believe the conversation is valuable to our community.

Edited to add--here's a video that I really liked, called "Tomboy." It's about a 9 year old girl who runs into gender stereotypes at school. http://vimeo.com/10654889

[Darth Denkay]

Thanks to all who have been a part of this discussion. In hind-sight, I probably could have come up with a better name for this thread. I wasn't actually trying to get at what specifically makes any of us butch, but more a general discussion around identities and stereotypes. Bit did a good job explaining it in a clearer way.

I've been thinking a lot about stereotypes lately, hence the thread. When I think about stereotypes, at least some do provide a description accurate for most folks. Using butch as an example, a stereotype of being butch is that butches have shorter haircuts. I imagine that is true for many butches out there. In other words it is common for butches to have short haircuts. At some point some stereotypes cross a line into requirement territory - if you are butch you have short hair. Now a butch who has long hair suddenly is no longer butch, because the stereotype is understood as an absolute. Seems to me that stereotypes that are descriptive without being absolutes or carrying value judgments aren't a bad thing.

We create stereotypes to help us understand the world. They provide us with a basis of information from which to start, so that every time we bring in a piece of information (and remember, we are bringing in hundreds of pieces of information every minute) we're not starting from square one each time. If stereotypes/schemas didn't exist the world would be overwhelming. I think stereotypes in and of themselves aren't problematic, but the way they are used is. When used simply as a starting point, not viewed as an absolute, and carrying no negative judgment, they are useful. When they are used to exclude or judge, that's where I see the problem. Does this make sense?

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

Thanks to all who have been a part of this discussion. In hind-sight, I probably could have come up with a better name for this thread. I wasn't actually trying to get at what specifically makes any of us butch, but more a general discussion around identities and stereotypes. Bit did a good job explaining it in a clearer way.

I've been thinking a lot about stereotypes lately, hence the thread. When I think about stereotypes, at least some do provide a description accurate for most folks. Using butch as an example, a stereotype of being butch is that butches have shorter haircuts. I imagine that is true for many butches out there. In other words it is common for butches to have short haircuts. At some point some stereotypes cross a line into requirement territory - if you are butch you have short hair. Now a butch who has long hair suddenly is no longer butch, because the stereotype is understood as an absolute. Seems to me that stereotypes that are descriptive without being absolutes or carrying value judgments aren't a bad thing.

We create stereotypes to help us understand the world. They provide us with a basis of information from which to start, so that every time we bring in a piece of information (and remember, we are bringing in hundreds of pieces of information every minute) we're not starting from square one each time. If stereotypes/schemas didn't exist the world would be overwhelming. I think stereotypes in and of themselves aren't problematic, but the way they are used is. When used simply as a starting point, not viewed as an absolute, and carrying no negative judgment, they are useful. When they are used to exclude or judge, that's where I see the problem. Does this make sense?

Even know there is often some truth in stereotypes unfortunately stereotypes are too often used to as basis of un-founded prejudice and as an excuse not to re-think pre-judgments about the groups in question.

To me they're much less a guide point or archetype and more often a characature that really over-all a extreme few would ever actually fit.

Giving them credence as truth or making any assumptions or judgments based on them, instead of the individuals themselves sets up for a value system right off the bat... more _____... less _____ ... stereotype.

I think there's a difference between having an fair idea "what butch means" that there's a 101 ways we express ourselves as individuals... then people looking to stereotypes and going from there.

Just another way to be judged.

Metro

ETA: Hair cuts are one thing but there's also a lot of negative to the stereotype of butch, as stereotyping generally comes from people outside the group in question.