Spirituality and Orientation/Gender

[Nat]

AtLastHome brought up in another thread that she applies her spirituality to her butch identity.

I also at least wonder if my gender experience has a spiritual root. I am curious if others here have found their spirituality either helps them understand or is otherwise entwined with their orientation and/or gender.

[Nat]

For me:

Reincarnation -

I've thought before perhaps I was a guy in my last life, or if maybe a couple reincarnated into me.

Jungian stuff -

I have wondered a bit if my experience with my gender is due to some anima/animus stuff from Jungian theory.

From Wikipedia

The anima and animus are described by Jung as elements of his theory of the collective unconscious, a domain of the unconscious that transcends the personal psyche. In the unconscious of the male, it finds expression as a feminine inner personality: anima; equivalently, in the unconscious of the female, it is expressed as a masculine inner personality: animus.

If the anima/animus does exist, I don't know how it works in the queer world. It's a bit frustrating to read him (for me) because his ideas about male and female, masculinity and femininity are outdated and I don't agree with them, but I'm still intrigued by the idea of an internal archetype of this sort. Is that what I'm sensing when I talk about the guy inside of me? Is he just my animus?

Other stuff -

Since I began a Goddess-centered (Pagan) spiritual path, I have found a lot more peace. This world can be a harsh one, and it helps me balance out, as does meditation.

Also, I just have the feeling that I was dealt the card of this life, and it's something I should embrace as fully as possible and do the most with it I can. That may not sound necessarily spiritual, but it's from a spiritual place.

[Passionaria]

If the anima/animus does exist, I don't know how it works in the queer world. It's a bit frustrating to read him (for me) because his ideas about male and female, masculinity and femininity are outdated and I don't agree with them, but I'm still intrigued by the idea of an internal archetype of this sort. Is that what I'm sensing when I talk about the guy inside of me? Is he just my animus?

I am essentially a Taoist. I find Jung's theories on Anima / Animus delightfully reflective of what we call Yin Yang theory. The famous Taoist text, the Tao te Ching states :

The Tao gives birth to One.
One gives birth to Two.
Two gives birth to Three.
Three gives birth to all things.

One giving birth to the two, represents spirit moving from essence into the limitless manifestations of physical reality.The physical world of two, or duality, being a dance between polar opposites, or Yin and Yang. The forces of Yin and Yang are not static, nor do they exists separate from one another, and each holds within it the essence of the other. A multidimensional interweaving of opposites, within and without. Pushing, pulling dancing, changing, giving birth to limitless possibilities of physical manifestation. This is represented in the Yin Yang Symbol.

Black represents Yin or the feminine aspects of the universe, white represents male or Yang aspects of the universe. The dot in each represents yin within yang, and yang within yin. The shape rather than a straight line, represents the fluid movement of the dance between them. Through this dance nothing is impossible, but a matter of the right balance of opposites in space and time. This dance between good and evil, male and female, dark and light, action / inaction, hot and cold, etc. essentially exists without guilt, blame or judgment. It is the human mind that adds that layer. It is just "the dance".

So yes, when it comes to my identity as a Femme, I do relate to the theories of Anima. The yin nature of the universe. The divine Feminine is what calls to me, the essence of my expressions. Layered upon that is my need to share body, and my soul with another woman, one who reflects a strong yang within yin.

The Mysterious Female

The Valley Spirit never dies
It is named the Mysterious Female.
And the doorway of the Mysterious Female
Is the base from which Heaven and Earth sprang.
It is there within us all the while;
Draw upon it as you will, it never runs dry ~Tao te Ching


Pashi

[Lynn]

I love your questions.



Over the past ten years or more, I have developed some definite ideas about myself, as a spiritual being. Coming out in this time period has been a part of the process of connecting to myself more honestly, and of clarifying who I am in relation to the universe. I believe that humans are spiritual beings who are bigger than and more than their bodies. Even so, coming out has been as much a sexual heightening as it has been spiritual. I can't help connecting the two when I am feeling so much more centered and alive. It feels like I am more expanded and aware now, which makes me feel like my identity and sexual preferences are more incidental--they are signposts of a greater type of development, beyond the body, but a part of it. Life is so much brighter now, and sex is so amazing, I seriously am often moved to prayer. I'm thankful that the dots finally connect.

[Nat]

I loved reading both of your posts, Pashi and Lynn. Both are so insightful and beautifully written. Thank you so much for posting them.

[Enigma]

~Twin Souls - When Love Incarnates~

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by Enigma

~Twin Souls - When Love Incarnates~

This is beautiful, thanks for posting it!
PS/ welcome to the planet!

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Nat

For me:

Reincarnation -

I've thought before perhaps I was a guy in my last life, or if maybe a couple reincarnated into me.

Jungian stuff -

I have wondered a bit if my experience with my gender is due to some anima/animus stuff from Jungian theory.

From Wikipedia



If the anima/animus does exist, I don't know how it works in the queer world. It's a bit frustrating to read him (for me) because his ideas about male and female, masculinity and femininity are outdated and I don't agree with them, but I'm still intrigued by the idea of an internal archetype of this sort. Is that what I'm sensing when I talk about the guy inside of me? Is he just my animus?

I think it works about the same in any world, Anima/animus but I think the difference is reincarnation and how you manifest in the here and now. Your journey will present the aspects it needs to fuel your spirit for your destiny.

My spirituality is most definitely linked to my femininity and Goddess attitude.

[SuperFemme]

Complicated. I think that being raised a good Catholic girl made for a torturous road to my relationship with self and the gender of Femme.

I'm not even sure it is completely accurate to say that Femme is my gender, but it is not encompassing enough to simply state that my gender is female. If that makes sense.

All through grade school and high school I felt myself to be the antithesis of what I was being told I was supposed to be. That led to a lot of years of self loathing, self deprecation and general confusion.

My gender was not Mary Magdalene or Joan of Arc, but rather a mixture of masculine and feminine components that seemed to be at odds with each other if I listened to Sister Mary Anne.

In a way I am grateful because I feel that my sexuality and my gender intertwined with my inquisitive nature and sent me on a spiritual quest.

In the end the gift of spirituality was all encompassing and has led me to self love and inner peace.

I have NO idea if anything I just said makes any sense to anyone else....

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Nat

AtLastHome brought up in another thread that she applies her spirituality to her butch identity.

I also at least wonder if my gender experience has a spiritual root. I am curious if others here have found their spirituality either helps them understand or is otherwise entwined with their orientation and/or gender.

Yes, I do and it is intertwined with the lesbian portion of my soul/spirit. It took me a very long time to cleanse the negative religious roots I had and allow another spiritual base to appear. And Jungian psychology is at the core for me. Plus, paranormal entities.

The butch aspect is that yin and yang (for want of a better term) of female and male as a butch that for me, is light within. The anima and animus and the past archetypes connected to me in that collective unconscious. I doubt I will ever be able to explain this outside of myself. That's OK, maybe it isn't meant for outside understanding. Maybe that is what spirituality really is, personal.

I want to nourish this aspect of myself more in retirement. Travel is the key.... going to where ancient souls began and world beliefs still live on. Learning more about Native American spirituality here is also key.

I don't really have any feelings about a deity, per se. Just energy and it is female and male energy that just cannot be separated. It must coexist.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Yes, I do and it is intertwined with the lesbian portion of my soul/spirit. It took me a very long time to cleanse the negative religious roots I had and allow another spiritual base to appear. And Jungian psychology is at the core for me. Plus, paranormal entities.

The butch aspect is that yin and yang (for want of a better term) of female and male as a butch that for me, is light within. The anima and animus and the past archetypes connected to me in that collective unconscious. I doubt I will ever be able to explain this outside of myself. That's OK, maybe it isn't meant for outside understanding. Maybe that is what spirituality really is, personal.

I want to nourish this aspect of myself more in retirement. Travel is the key.... going to where ancient souls began and world beliefs still live on. Learning more about Native American spirituality here is also key.

I don't really have any feelings about a deity, per se. Just energy and it is female and male energy that just cannot be separated. It must coexist.

I have similar notions. I think masculine and feminine are moving toward a blend that is more than coexisting. The "energy" nourishes, thrives, blends, expresses as one, the same.

I spend much time talking about and thinking as to why we attach gender based labels to our behaviour, thinking, emotions, creativity and so on. I see my gender as an expression of my evolving, "peeling the onion". (Keep in mind that "the onion" is unique to each individual.) It's ironic that the more I move into a masculine expression, the more my feminine consciousness and expression grew, opened up.

[Andrew, Jr.]

The word just makes most folks think it is a negative. I don't. I think Karma is both positive and negative. Ying and Yang. It is like two hands intertwined. I think and believe that every action has a reaction (sounds like a phyics thing). For example when my sister died, I have many other women come into my life that not necessarily replaced her, but added onto my family of choice. It is just one more to go thru life with. I celebrate that fact.

Does anyone else have this thinking?

[foxyshaman]

Third Gender is a term I have used for myself for many years... or tri-sexual. I do not use the term in reference to my sexual orientation, rather my spiritual identification. Shamanism is my love. Shamans have often been considered the third gender. They were often times the ones in the community who could and would speak/negotiate/heal both genders. Many traditional cultures had titles and designations for the shamans (also known by other names). I have felt as though I have straddled both genders simply because of the role I have been assigned spiritually.

I call myself a dyke, but that is another thread .

Spirit has called me to practice and study shamanism, and my training has been as a warrior. I tend to see my spiritual life as my masculine/Animus self and my living life as my feminine/anima self. In this way I see myself as a third gender, that space in-between F and M. Encompassing both as a balanced spiritual practice/balanced spiritual human.

When shamanic cultures were being explored/discovered most of the individuals recording what they saw came from a binary culture, with little or no understanding of a third gender. Often times the orientation of the shaman was not written about, because it was simply not recognized. In different traditions shamans would have to undergo rituals which included changing their gender. Or it would be that women shamans were not allowed to 'shamanize' if they had children and could only be considered a shaman if their children were past the age they needed their mother. Male shamans were often dressed as women and often took partners who were male or very masculine females, what we might term as butch.

Shamans have crossed the barriers of gender for generations. It simply was a part of their calling to encompass and understand both genders and the specifics required to 'shamanize' the different genders.

Anyway those are just some of my thoughts.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by foxyshaman

Third Gender is a term I have used for myself for many years... or tri-sexual. I do not use the term in reference to my sexual orientation, rather my spiritual identification. Shamanism is my love. Shamans have often been considered the third gender. They were often times the ones in the community who could and would speak/negotiate/heal both genders. Many traditional cultures had titles and designations for the shamans (also known by other names). I have felt as though I have straddled both genders simply because of the role I have been assigned spiritually.

I call myself a dyke, but that is another thread .

Spirit has called me to practice and study shamanism, and my training has been as a warrior. I tend to see my spiritual life as my masculine/Animus self and my living life as my feminine/anima self. In this way I see myself as a third gender, that space in-between F and M. Encompassing both as a balanced spiritual practice/balanced spiritual human.

When shamanic cultures were being explored/discovered most of the individuals recording what they saw came from a binary culture, with little or no understanding of a third gender. Often times the orientation of the shaman was not written about, because it was simply not recognized. In different traditions shamans would have to undergo rituals which included changing their gender. Or it would be that women shamans were not allowed to 'shamanize' if they had children and could only be considered a shaman if their children were past the age they needed their mother. Male shamans were often dressed as women and often took partners who were male or very masculine females, what we might term as butch.

Shamans have crossed the barriers of gender for generations. It simply was a part of their calling to encompass and understand both genders and the specifics required to 'shamanize' the different genders.

Anyway those are just some of my thoughts.

Thank for these thoughts.

This speaks to my internalizations of both gender and sexuality as a butch. The barriers about gender as well as sexuality have been so misinterpreted in modern cultures, I believe. And the tension created internally as well as externally due to this is so hard for some and so fed with the Puritan Ethic (well, as we view this ethic, today- this is what messing with history leads to).

I'm a blend (well, we all are, really) and am grateful for being at peace with this. Two-Spirit as well as the ways of the Shamanism seem to just be barrier free in terms of gender and sexuality which is a positive energy force as I experience it. I am grateful for this as many do not have this peace and flow. Although, everyone has their own way to get where they want to go!

I often think about the relationship of anima and animus with taking either testosterone or estrogen and how many transpeople begin to experience sexual attraction thereafter with many finding themselves attracted more to the gender of their own transition (male to male, female to female). Jung would have a field day if he were alive today and able to study this! For me this puts bisexuality as well as homosexuality on a whole new level.

[Glenn]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

The word just makes most folks think it is a negative. I don't. I think Karma is both positive and negative. Ying and Yang. It is like two hands intertwined. I think and believe that every action has a reaction (sounds like a phyics thing). For example when my sister died, I have many other women come into my life that not necessarily replaced her, but added onto my family of choice. It is just one more to go thru life with. I celebrate that fact.

Does anyone else have this thinking?

God wants us to express our love beyond family toward all genders and nationalities, and not be limited in consciousness. That is why when we are reborn we do not remember everyone we've known before because it would be limiting our love.

[Bit]

I believe in reincarnation, and for a long time I have believed that people who know they are in the wrong bodies know it because their spirit/soul remembers who they were before, in other lifetimes.

I myself have no memories of past lives as a man; as far as I know, I have always been female in every life.

I have partnered with Butches who have active memories of past lives as men. Some of them have been happy with this, and some have been completely uncomfortable with it.

Before I believed in reincarnation and multiple gods/goddesses, Butches didn't make a lot of sense to me (and Transsexed people even less!) because I was trapped in the dominant religious binary, believing that we all had to conform to specific ways of being. So I would say, yes, my spirituality has a strong bearing on my understanding of gender, and certainly gave me the freedom to explore myself as a gendered being. I don't think I would have the same understanding at all if I had kept a different spirituality, because I just wasn't open to understanding anything while I was busy following other people's rules... I was too scared to allow differences and diversity then.

[Nat]

I tend to think movement into the age of Aquarius (from the dualistic age of Pisces) accounts for the move away from binaries and the acknowledgment of the multitudes of experiences and paths people have. I also tend to at least want to think that fundamentalist oppression against gender and orientation variance is as vehement as it is because things are actually changing. At least that's what I hope.

[Bit]

Originally Posted by Nat

I also tend to at least want to think that fundamentalist oppression against gender and orientation variance is as vehement as it is because things are actually changing. At least that's what I hope.

I believe this is true. I think the change has elicited a backlash, which will eventually die away.

Certainly, there are religions with a LOT to say about gender, both gender identity and gender expression.

[Ebon]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

The word just makes most folks think it is a negative. I don't. I think Karma is both positive and negative. Ying and Yang. It is like two hands intertwined. I think and believe that every action has a reaction (sounds like a phyics thing). For example when my sister died, I have many other women come into my life that not necessarily replaced her, but added onto my family of choice. It is just one more to go thru life with. I celebrate that fact.

Does anyone else have this thinking?

Yes and people use it in a weird context at times. I won't say incorrect because to each their own. I believe that we do have karma from past lives but we can also change our life's path or at least make it heaven or hell. I also believe that we are here to learn and grow. Knowing this I've decideded to love, laugh, teach and learn as much as possible and have so much fun while doing it. Amen lol

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Organicbutch

Yes and people use it in a weird context at times. I won't say incorrect because to each their own. I believe that we do have karma from past lives but we can also change our life's path or at least make it heaven or hell. I also believe that we are here to learn and grow. Knowing this I've decideded to love, laugh, teach and learn as much as possible and have so much fun while doing it. Amen lol

Thinking that so many things get mis-used and directed. Maybe because understanding isn't really present? Yes, I believe we all make our own positive or negative ... post childhood. LOL... my Mom cut children a lot of slack (especially with concepts like sin- she said children did not sin!) and I guess I do too. When we are adults, it is time to just take responsibility for actions. But, the foundation has to laid while we grow up- mainly in our adult role models.

I believe Karma is real and infinite. But, as you say, its context is often misunderstood because it has become a buz word. Why people think that a concept that is ancient and takes years to learn (by the practice of a particular faith or spiritual path) can be thrown around like confetti is beyond me. Understanding Karma is not wearing a T-shirt with it spelled-out on it!