Poll: Should owners of dogs that kill people be prosecuted for murder?

AtLast · 07-24-2010, 07:46 PM

Poll: Should owners of dogs that kill people be prosecuted for murder?

Some states do have laws in which a person owning a dog that kills a person can be prosecuted for murder. Which means that the dog owner would be subject to murder sentencing depending upon what degree of murder they are convicted of. What do you think? Feel free to bring up the many possible issues included in what you think about this.

Corkey · 07-24-2010, 08:03 PM

For a murder charge one must prove intent, I don't think that it is possible
for anyone to know the intent of a dog. If someone let loose a dog that was bread to kill, with the human intent of killing, then yes the person should be prosecuted for murder.

Rockinonahigh · 07-24-2010, 08:24 PM

I voted other because if the dog owner has done all things possable to prevent his dog from harming others and the dog kills someone he at least should have his say in court.Owners who are negligent in keeping any dog where he can harm someone should have the book thrown at them for not being responsable unless they they deliberatly used the dog to kill its like useing any wepon to murder,hold hostage or any other thing he can use the dog for that intimadates another person.I often wonder why anyone would need a dog that visous in the first place,to many ppl in to small a place as we are becomeing way to crouded near anywher we live.

Mister Bent · 07-24-2010, 08:37 PM

As Corkey states, murder speaks to the killer's state of mind and intent, neither of which can be known of the dog.

However, it's not the dog being prosecuted. The dog is, in effect, the "weapon." And just as a gun owner has a responsibility toward proper handling of his firearm, so does a dog owner of their dog. I believe owners of dogs that kill should be prosecuted with whatever laws are relevant to the circumstances. Unless it can be proved the dog owner intentionally used their dog to kill, I would think they should be charged with voluntary manslaughter.

Any dog has the potential to bite, but the natural drive, tenacity and structure of some dogs makes them potentially more dangerous than others, and carry with them a greater level of responsibility, on par with a gun owner's culpability for accidental discharge of their firearm. At the very least, increased owner accountability under the law might result in more responsible dog ownership and handling.

Apocalipstic · 07-24-2010, 08:48 PM

I voted manslaughter.

Except for in cases when there was intent to kill using the dog as a weapon, then murder 1 should be the charge.

Blade · 07-24-2010, 09:04 PM

great thread topic ALH! I'll be back to post after I think about it a bit.

Blade · 07-24-2010, 10:07 PM

I don't think you can hold all dog owns responsible for murder. Perhaps involuntary or voluntary manslaughter. Thirty two states have a dangerous dog law, for the most part the laws are mandated by each city unless there is a state law. In 2007 there were 33 dog bite related deaths.
There are about 800,000 dog bites each year and 1 in 6 of those require ER treatment. It's the 5th leading cause for ER visits.

That said, it does sound like there are a large number of irresponsible dog owners. In North Carolina for example it is illegal to knowingly sell a dog trained to bite, except for police dogs but that is another story, typically they are taught to bite and hold. Have I ever sold a biting dog? Certainly. People were beating my doors down for them in the 80's-07, but I only trained dogs for people with a need for a protection dog.

A well trained dog is way unlikely to bite unprovoked let alone kill a human, though I know it happens. I use to tell my kids if one of our dogs bite you, you will have a spanking when we get home from the hospital, because I knew they would have to be provoked. Ya can't really say oh my dog doesn't bite. They have 42 teeth and a brain of their own.

If a person has shown they are a responsible owner then no they shouldn't face murder charges. If someone is provoking a dog, no they shouldn't face murder charges. If a person has a known biting dog and didn't keep it in a responsible fashion, then yes manslaughter. If my neighbors 3 dogs get out and kill a person and they don't have a history of viciousness, yes manslaughter.

I'm going to knock on wood here, in the past I have had over 60 guard dogs in a kennel and never remember any escaping and getting lose. I've had dogs all of my adult life at my home and have never had any get out of their pens unless I let them out. Hope it never happens. So for me it is a mixed opinion and mainly a question of circumstance.

AtLast · 07-24-2010, 10:12 PM

Great discussion! Getting a lot from other people's thinking about this. i knew there would be lots of ways to look at this. Thanks.

AtLast · 07-25-2010, 03:11 AM

About the SF dog mauling killing and second degree murder conviction (upheld) a few years back. Thye woman killed was Diane Whipple and she was mauled beyond recognition. The owner was found guilty of second degree murder.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2005-05-0...der-conviction

"The appeals court said the evidence showed Knoller had known that the 140- pound Presa Canario that killed Whipple was "a frightening and dangerous animal: huge, untrained and bred to fight."

Does anyone know if negligent homicide is used as a charge in any state?

I am a dog lover and owner and take great pains to socialize my pooches as well as observe leash laws and frankly, I have put down a dog in the past due to aggressive behavior (bit 3 people, one a pregnant woman. Dog was co-owned with a partner and I wanted to put him down after the second bite). Not easy, but, the writing was on the wall to me about him not being safe (100 lb German Shepherd). We did it at our vet's office and both were with him.

I take care of my dogs and take the time for training and well, I interact with them (now, only have one) as family, really. But, I will not keep or bring to a shelter (so that it becomes someone else's problem and remains a threat) an aggressive dog that could pose a danger to people. Unfortunately, some dogs are.

I don't agree with breed stereotypes that surround certain breeds like Pit bulls as I know some that are great dogs and have very responsible owners.

There was just another child mauled and killed here this past week and yesterday another little girl was mauled (she is in stable condition). both incidents were by Pit Bulls. I have certainly heard about maulings about other breeds.

When I see people do dumb things with dogs that can lead to a dog being aggressive, or just not being a responsible dog owner, it makes me mad. Dogs deserve to be nurtured and interacted with... loved and cared for.

I guess I look at this in terms of a dog owner being negligent. So, even though the Whipple case was horrifying and frankly, the dog's owners were a number one assholes and knew the lethality of the dog, I don't know that murder is the correct charge. But, I sure think that criminal charges with some severity in sentencing should be in play. what people are saying about intent makes sense to me. although, in CA intent is only part of the first degree murder charge.

The controversy that we in Northern CA during the Whipple case is going to go full tilt again and the Whipple case set precedent for a murder conviction. Although, the dog that killed the child this past week belonged to the step-father of the child. That might have bearing.

I have no patience at all with people that do not neuter and spay their dogs. Yes, breeders obviously need in-tact dogs. Although, reputable and responsible breeders I know do not let their dogs run all over anyway. These are usually show quality dogs and breeders do not want them to even get in fights at dog parks for fear of scaring, etc. I really don’t care for back-yard breeding. We have enough dogs that are neglected or in shelters.

I so wish that when people decide to get a dog they researched breeds and mixes to determine which ones fit their lifestyle. Also, realize it is a big commitment. I couldn’t live without a pooch, but they are just part of my life. And some people should not have dogs at all.

Blade · 07-25-2010, 08:00 AM

That is a great post above me ALH! When I was working with dogs I never sold working stock for family pets. Also as a responsible breeder, if people brought their children with them to pick out a dog or puppy if their children weren't well behaved I figured their adult dog wouldn't be either and the price of dogs just went up, or that litter is all sold or those are to young or something.

Once a guy called me out on it and I point blank told him. You have brought 5 kids with you out here and you don't have very good control over them, I can't in good faith sell you a dog that will grow to be 100 pounds or more and you have 5 kids under 12 that are this undisciplined. Yep he was pissed and left in a huff.

Apocalipstic · 07-25-2010, 08:38 AM

It breaks my heart that people train dogs to fight and fight them.

My dogs (and cats) are always very sweet and well behaved.

I think in TN negligent homicide is negligent manslaughter. Man 2 or 3.

I have been bitten by a chow and a teacup poodle. The poodle bit me in the face with no provocation. The chow just lunged at me for no reason too. I blame the parents.

Stearns · 07-25-2010, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

<snip>
Does anyone know if negligent homicide is used as a charge in any state?

Negligent homicide is called involuntary manslaughter in many states. The person did not intend the death, nor was the action they took a crime, but it was something that most reasonable people would not do. Such as, playing with a loaded gun when others are in the room. It seems like most states have a dangerous dog statute and that involuntary manslaughter is most often used only after the dog had previously been declared dangerous.

I agree with others on here. If the owner ordered the dog to attack, then they should be charged with murder. If the owner knew the dog was dangerous, but did not intend the dog to attack, then I'd go with involuntary manslaughter.

Rockinonahigh · 07-25-2010, 10:03 AM

I have only been bitten once and it was by a greman shepard guarding her pups newly born,I had no idea they were in the barn,she belonged to a friend of mine and had all her shots.She could have easly took a big hold of my leg and done some real damage but only gave me a warning and riped a new air of levis,a little later that day she came out of the stall sat at my knee then appologised as much as a dog could..she even sniffed my knee to see if I was hurt ,infact thats the one and only time she ever bit anyone.
One other thing I have found disterbing is something I saw at the vets one day..a couple brought in two pit bull pups about eight weeks old,they were as playfull as any pups....then they brought in momma who cleard the room,she was muzzled choke collard and all she also lookd like she had a fue fights in her day from the scars on her.These ppl lived in an appartment complex with many ppl around,I know pit bulls are bred to guard and are used to fight (wich im totaly against any dog fighting)..I wondered if those pups were heaed for the ring or would be nice dogs to be around as they grew up.I know many large dogs get a bum rap about being mean and biteing ppl but it shure makes me wary around any large dog cause of this.I know small dogs can be just as bad.

View Poll Results: Murder should be one of the available charges for dog owners that own dogs that kill a person.
Yes, dog owners should be prosecuted on murder charges.	16	31.37%
No, dog owners should not be prosecuted on murder charges.	6	11.76%
The highest level of criminal charges should be manslaughter.	17	33.33%
Other. Post comments.	12	23.53%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 51. You may not vote on this poll

07-24-2010, 07:46 PM	#1
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,830 Times in 3,200 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Poll: Should owners of dogs that kill people be prosecuted for murder? Poll: Should owners of dogs that kill people be prosecuted for murder? Some states do have laws in which a person owning a dog that kills a person can be prosecuted for murder. Which means that the dog owner would be subject to murder sentencing depending upon what degree of murder they are convicted of. What do you think? Feel free to bring up the many possible issues included in what you think about this.

07-24-2010, 08:03 PM	#2
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,299 Times in 6,640 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	For a murder charge one must prove intent, I don't think that it is possible for anyone to know the intent of a dog. If someone let loose a dog that was bread to kill, with the human intent of killing, then yes the person should be prosecuted for murder. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

07-24-2010, 08:37 PM	#4
Mister Bent Senior Member How Do You Identify?: . Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: . Posts: 2,905 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,151 Thanked 5,829 Times in 1,721 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	As Corkey states, murder speaks to the killer's state of mind and intent, neither of which can be known of the dog. However, it's not the dog being prosecuted. The dog is, in effect, the "weapon." And just as a gun owner has a responsibility toward proper handling of his firearm, so does a dog owner of their dog. I believe owners of dogs that kill should be prosecuted with whatever laws are relevant to the circumstances. Unless it can be proved the dog owner intentionally used their dog to kill, I would think they should be charged with voluntary manslaughter. Any dog has the potential to bite, but the natural drive, tenacity and structure of some dogs makes them potentially more dangerous than others, and carry with them a greater level of responsibility, on par with a gun owner's culpability for accidental discharge of their firearm. At the very least, increased owner accountability under the law might result in more responsible dog ownership and handling. __________________ Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats. - H. L. Mencken Last edited by Mister Bent; 07-24-2010 at 08:42 PM.

07-24-2010, 08:48 PM	#5
Apocalipstic Pink Confection How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Ma'am Relationship Status: Dating Myself Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Nashville Posts: 4,266 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 17,195 Thanked 11,382 Times in 2,839 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	I voted manslaughter. Except for in cases when there was intent to kill using the dog as a weapon, then murder 1 should be the charge. __________________

07-24-2010, 08:24 PM	#3
Rockinonahigh Senior Member How Do You Identify?: stone butch Preferred Pronoun?: makes no diffrence,I know who I am. Relationship Status: single,maybe looking if the right person comes along. Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: shreveport,Louisiana Posts: 4,907 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,682 Thanked 14,937 Times in 3,936 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	I voted other because if the dog owner has done all things possable to prevent his dog from harming others and the dog kills someone he at least should have his say in court.Owners who are negligent in keeping any dog where he can harm someone should have the book thrown at them for not being responsable unless they they deliberatly used the dog to kill its like useing any wepon to murder,hold hostage or any other thing he can use the dog for that intimadates another person.I often wonder why anyone would need a dog that visous in the first place,to many ppl in to small a place as we are becomeing way to crouded near anywher we live.

07-24-2010, 09:04 PM	#6
Blade Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: TG Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: once in a while someone amazing comes along...and here I am! Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Down on the farm Posts: 5,492 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,850 Thanked 14,401 Times in 4,049 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	great thread topic ALH! I'll be back to post after I think about it a bit. __________________ Yeah so what if I'm triple dipped in awesome sauce? The best way to predict the future, is to create it.

07-24-2010, 10:07 PM	#7
Blade Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: TG Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: once in a while someone amazing comes along...and here I am! Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Down on the farm Posts: 5,492 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,850 Thanked 14,401 Times in 4,049 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I don't think you can hold all dog owns responsible for murder. Perhaps involuntary or voluntary manslaughter. Thirty two states have a dangerous dog law, for the most part the laws are mandated by each city unless there is a state law. In 2007 there were 33 dog bite related deaths. There are about 800,000 dog bites each year and 1 in 6 of those require ER treatment. It's the 5th leading cause for ER visits. That said, it does sound like there are a large number of irresponsible dog owners. In North Carolina for example it is illegal to knowingly sell a dog trained to bite, except for police dogs but that is another story, typically they are taught to bite and hold. Have I ever sold a biting dog? Certainly. People were beating my doors down for them in the 80's-07, but I only trained dogs for people with a need for a protection dog. A well trained dog is way unlikely to bite unprovoked let alone kill a human, though I know it happens. I use to tell my kids if one of our dogs bite you, you will have a spanking when we get home from the hospital, because I knew they would have to be provoked. Ya can't really say oh my dog doesn't bite. They have 42 teeth and a brain of their own. If a person has shown they are a responsible owner then no they shouldn't face murder charges. If someone is provoking a dog, no they shouldn't face murder charges. If a person has a known biting dog and didn't keep it in a responsible fashion, then yes manslaughter. If my neighbors 3 dogs get out and kill a person and they don't have a history of viciousness, yes manslaughter. I'm going to knock on wood here, in the past I have had over 60 guard dogs in a kennel and never remember any escaping and getting lose. I've had dogs all of my adult life at my home and have never had any get out of their pens unless I let them out. Hope it never happens. So for me it is a mixed opinion and mainly a question of circumstance. __________________ Yeah so what if I'm triple dipped in awesome sauce? The best way to predict the future, is to create it.

07-24-2010, 10:12 PM	#8
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,830 Times in 3,200 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	Great discussion! Getting a lot from other people's thinking about this. i knew there would be lots of ways to look at this. Thanks.

07-25-2010, 03:11 AM	#9
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,830 Times in 3,200 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	About the SF dog mauling killing and second degree murder conviction (upheld) a few years back. Thye woman killed was Diane Whipple and she was mauled beyond recognition. The owner was found guilty of second degree murder. http://articles.sfgate.com/2005-05-0...der-conviction "The appeals court said the evidence showed Knoller had known that the 140- pound Presa Canario that killed Whipple was "a frightening and dangerous animal: huge, untrained and bred to fight." Does anyone know if negligent homicide is used as a charge in any state? I am a dog lover and owner and take great pains to socialize my pooches as well as observe leash laws and frankly, I have put down a dog in the past due to aggressive behavior (bit 3 people, one a pregnant woman. Dog was co-owned with a partner and I wanted to put him down after the second bite). Not easy, but, the writing was on the wall to me about him not being safe (100 lb German Shepherd). We did it at our vet's office and both were with him. I take care of my dogs and take the time for training and well, I interact with them (now, only have one) as family, really. But, I will not keep or bring to a shelter (so that it becomes someone else's problem and remains a threat) an aggressive dog that could pose a danger to people. Unfortunately, some dogs are. I don't agree with breed stereotypes that surround certain breeds like Pit bulls as I know some that are great dogs and have very responsible owners. There was just another child mauled and killed here this past week and yesterday another little girl was mauled (she is in stable condition). both incidents were by Pit Bulls. I have certainly heard about maulings about other breeds. When I see people do dumb things with dogs that can lead to a dog being aggressive, or just not being a responsible dog owner, it makes me mad. Dogs deserve to be nurtured and interacted with... loved and cared for. I guess I look at this in terms of a dog owner being negligent. So, even though the Whipple case was horrifying and frankly, the dog's owners were a number one assholes and knew the lethality of the dog, I don't know that murder is the correct charge. But, I sure think that criminal charges with some severity in sentencing should be in play. what people are saying about intent makes sense to me. although, in CA intent is only part of the first degree murder charge. The controversy that we in Northern CA during the Whipple case is going to go full tilt again and the Whipple case set precedent for a murder conviction. Although, the dog that killed the child this past week belonged to the step-father of the child. That might have bearing. I have no patience at all with people that do not neuter and spay their dogs. Yes, breeders obviously need in-tact dogs. Although, reputable and responsible breeders I know do not let their dogs run all over anyway. These are usually show quality dogs and breeders do not want them to even get in fights at dog parks for fear of scaring, etc. I really don’t care for back-yard breeding. We have enough dogs that are neglected or in shelters. I so wish that when people decide to get a dog they researched breeds and mixes to determine which ones fit their lifestyle. Also, realize it is a big commitment. I couldn’t live without a pooch, but they are just part of my life. And some people should not have dogs at all.

07-25-2010, 08:00 AM	#10
Blade Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: TG Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: once in a while someone amazing comes along...and here I am! Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Down on the farm Posts: 5,492 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,850 Thanked 14,401 Times in 4,049 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	That is a great post above me ALH! When I was working with dogs I never sold working stock for family pets. Also as a responsible breeder, if people brought their children with them to pick out a dog or puppy if their children weren't well behaved I figured their adult dog wouldn't be either and the price of dogs just went up, or that litter is all sold or those are to young or something. Once a guy called me out on it and I point blank told him. You have brought 5 kids with you out here and you don't have very good control over them, I can't in good faith sell you a dog that will grow to be 100 pounds or more and you have 5 kids under 12 that are this undisciplined. Yep he was pissed and left in a huff. __________________ Yeah so what if I'm triple dipped in awesome sauce? The best way to predict the future, is to create it.

07-25-2010, 08:38 AM	#11
Apocalipstic Pink Confection How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: She, Her, Ma'am Relationship Status: Dating Myself Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Nashville Posts: 4,266 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 17,195 Thanked 11,382 Times in 2,839 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	It breaks my heart that people train dogs to fight and fight them. My dogs (and cats) are always very sweet and well behaved. I think in TN negligent homicide is negligent manslaughter. Man 2 or 3. I have been bitten by a chow and a teacup poodle. The poodle bit me in the face with no provocation. The chow just lunged at me for no reason too. I blame the parents. __________________

07-25-2010, 10:03 AM	#13
Rockinonahigh Senior Member How Do You Identify?: stone butch Preferred Pronoun?: makes no diffrence,I know who I am. Relationship Status: single,maybe looking if the right person comes along. Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: shreveport,Louisiana Posts: 4,907 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4,682 Thanked 14,937 Times in 3,936 Posts Rep Power: 21474855	I have only been bitten once and it was by a greman shepard guarding her pups newly born,I had no idea they were in the barn,she belonged to a friend of mine and had all her shots.She could have easly took a big hold of my leg and done some real damage but only gave me a warning and riped a new air of levis,a little later that day she came out of the stall sat at my knee then appologised as much as a dog could..she even sniffed my knee to see if I was hurt ,infact thats the one and only time she ever bit anyone. One other thing I have found disterbing is something I saw at the vets one day..a couple brought in two pit bull pups about eight weeks old,they were as playfull as any pups....then they brought in momma who cleard the room,she was muzzled choke collard and all she also lookd like she had a fue fights in her day from the scars on her.These ppl lived in an appartment complex with many ppl around,I know pit bulls are bred to guard and are used to fight (wich im totaly against any dog fighting)..I wondered if those pups were heaed for the ring or would be nice dogs to be around as they grew up.I know many large dogs get a bum rap about being mean and biteing ppl but it shure makes me wary around any large dog cause of this.I know small dogs can be just as bad.