Being perceived as ditzy, flaky or shallow for being femme

[Star Anise]

It seems that this will be another soul searching difficult post for me, which has been incited by thoughts and feelings I have experienced over a few different nights, and particularly last night when out at a gay bar in town.


As a quick background, for the most part I identify as femme, and it is something that I feel is “natural” to me and something I have experimented with.



Before I came out “officially” I confess that I had this strange notion that to be a lesbian, I would have to be more butch, and I did experiment with becoming more masculine in both mannerism and clothing style. However it didn’t take me too long to realise that this simply wasn’t who I am, it was an ill fitting costume.
When I go out, I do like to dress up and I tend to sit more in the high femme end…


And lately (I am not sure whether it is happening more, whether I am noticing it more, or whether I am just being more sensitive to it) but I feel like butch women don’t take me seriously, and treat me like an idiot, or dismiss me as being shallow simply for the fact that I am wearing cosmetics, and feminine clothes and (most importantly for me) having fun with my clothes!


I will post more on this topic soon, I am really just feeling utterly depressed and rejected right now.

[EnderD_503]

Sorry to hear that. Unfortunately, people today still seem to like to make assumptions based on clothing, appearance, identity, gender presentation etc. or assume that certain types of clothing/presentation/identities mean things that they really don't.

It always sucks when you have to experience something like that, but it shouldn't be something for you to feel depressed or rejected about, imo. It's really they're problem, and if they're going to make those kinds of negative connections they're really not worth your time. Might sound like a cliched response, but still rings true, imo.

[bigbutchmistie]

Hello I am sorry you are going through this... But something I think Dr Seuss said one time : Be yourself cause those who mind dont matter and those that matter dont mind

Simply put. Be the you, YOU are comfortable with and people will see that. And that will attract the right people.

If someone or a group isnt accepting of you, that is their loss... I hope this helps. Best of luck to ya

[Greco]

"And lately (I am not sure whether it is happening more, whether I am noticing it more, or whether I am just being more sensitive to it) but I feel like butch women don’t take me seriously, and treat me like an idiot, or dismiss me as being shallow simply for the fact that I am wearing cosmetics, and feminine clothes and (most importantly for me) having fun with my clothes!"


Star Anise,

As has already been mentioned, its their problem. I want to share with you that I have always enjoyed and been attracted to femmes who wear make up, and have fun dressing in their feminine manner. Part of my attraction to femmes is their love of looking beautiful, and enjoying their feminine qualities. So, those butches that appreciate femmes and their energy will find you.

Enjoy it all, Greco

[atomiczombie]

The notion that anyone would think someone is ditzy, flaky or shallow because they are femme is really disturbing to me. I don't associate any of those things with femininity, be it queer or straight. Femmes are beautiful, strong, amazing people. Whoever doesn't think so doesn't deserve a second look by you, Ms Star.

Oh, and sorry for posting here I just realized this is the femme zone. Sorry!!

[Greco]

"Oh, and sorry for posting here I just realized this is the femme zone. Sorry!!"

Oops! I did the same thing.

Back to Femme thread

Greco

[little_ms_sunshyne]

I say Fuck 'em

Sorry, I curse like a sailor and yes I am as femme as they come. There is always someone out there that has some judgement to pass or a stereotype to use. If you let them get to you then they win. They do not define you, you define who you are.

I have met many butches that love girly and extra feminine women. In fact, it drives them nuts

From a femme's perspective, there is nothing sexier than a woman embracing all that feminine beauty. From the curve of her neck to the curve in her waist.

Be you, be confident,thank the lord you have a sense of fashion lol, and that other half that completes you will make their way to you.

Just my two cents, hope it helps!

[Rockinonahigh]

I agree with what BBM and everyone else has said,be yourself,you cant be but who u r wich is just fine,anyone who says any thing diffrent is just going by what ever standard they want..that dosent ever have to agree or disagree
with who ppl are.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by greco

"Oh, and sorry for posting here I just realized this is the femme zone. Sorry!!"

Oops! I did the same thing.

Back to Femme thread

Greco

Thanks for realizing and hoping that the Femme Zone continue to be respected and our space as well.

Anise,

I'm sorry that you are experiencing this... It's never easy when someone tries to super impose their sexism, mysoginy and stereotypes on you due to their lack of evolved thinking. I suggest you not give up your space and call them out on their assumptions of you. Take your power back and gently remind these people you are no ditzy anything... I've learned that no one can take your power or invade your space if you are clear. These people sound jerky please don't give them no mind and I hope you reading, discussing and using your Femme sister network it helps you and recharges your soul. I'm grateful and glad we have so many variations of Femme that will give you good advice, empathize and support you during times like this. I get you, and it's dismissing, don't let them though reach deep down to your Femme soul and do not give their ignorance one more minute of your thoughts.

Good luck

(((( hugs ))))

[Sweet Bliss]

Originally Posted by Star Anise

And lately (I am not sure whether it is happening more, whether I am noticing it more, or whether I am just being more sensitive to it) but I feel like butch women don’t take me seriously, and treat me like an idiot, or dismiss me as being shallow simply for the fact that I am wearing cosmetics, and feminine clothes and (most importantly for me) having fun with my clothes!

I will post more on this topic soon, I am really just feeling utterly depressed and rejected right now.

Good Morning Star Anise,

There have been many times I have felt dismissed etc, regardless of the company (audience), since I read as "straight", whatever that is, (but seems to be changing, maybe cause I'm approaching them more often?) Although I think of myself as very feminine, I don't go much into makeup and the clothes thingie much anymore. All those Women Studies classes, and highly visible strong lesbian professors kinda rubbed off on me.

On the rare occasions that I'm in a "gay" bar, I find that peeps don't talk to me, or ask me to dance, but to my way of thinking it's because they don't even know my name let alone how I think. So speaking for myself, I usually read peeps stand-offish-ness as just "uh oh, new person!"

So, now with experience and a dash of Femme "wevos" (don't know correct spelling, my bad) which in my area means "Eggs", (read as ovaries) I just sashay over and introduce myself, don't engage in much eye contact with butches who are sitting with obvious dancing partner, and if asked to sit with them, I am polite, using my best manners and join them.

If the music moves me, I dance by myself. Actually, the most fun I ever had was dancing with a beautiful Femme half my age. (She reminded me of an old girlfriend Pam, who was my BF until I moved out of the area, remember, this was the mid 70's so no technology to keep in touch like today). The lovely young Femme and I both danced with a belly dance style, so was probably erotic to watch that night.

She ended up with a very HOT HOT HOT Butch that evening, who could match all her moves with a passionate Latina counter move, they were so hot on the dance floor we were all hooting and hollering that night. I went home alone, as usual, which is my preference.

Hummmm, must be in story-sharing mood today......

If you are interested, you might want to see if there are belly dancing groups in your area, you would be amazed at the number of Femmes who belong to such groups. It's a great way to boost your self confidence, even if you don't want to perform publicly, just for your Lover. Plus the advantage to this style of dancing is that it keeps you limber and in tune to your heart/soul/spirit etc.

And if you are into "Dress-up" Sugar, start making your own costumes.... mmmm, now THAT'S

[Ms. Meander]

Originally Posted by Star Anise

It seems that this will be another soul searching difficult post for me, which has been incited by thoughts and feelings I have experienced over a few different nights, and particularly last night when out at a gay bar in town.


As a quick background, for the most part I identify as femme, and it is something that I feel is “natural” to me and something I have experimented with.



Before I came out “officially” I confess that I had this strange notion that to be a lesbian, I would have to be more butch, and I did experiment with becoming more masculine in both mannerism and clothing style. However it didn’t take me too long to realise that this simply wasn’t who I am, it was an ill fitting costume.
When I go out, I do like to dress up and I tend to sit more in the high femme end…


And lately (I am not sure whether it is happening more, whether I am noticing it more, or whether I am just being more sensitive to it) but I feel like butch women don’t take me seriously, and treat me like an idiot, or dismiss me as being shallow simply for the fact that I am wearing cosmetics, and feminine clothes and (most importantly for me) having fun with my clothes!


I will post more on this topic soon, I am really just feeling utterly depressed and rejected right now.

This is something I have experienced to some degree. I live in an area that is very liberal, has a large LGBT community, and is thick with Hippies. While there is some Butch/Femme community here and some fabulous Femmes (a couple of which are my best fremmes), there are more lesbians who fall someplace in the middle – a little butch of center/a little femme of center. These are the sort I feel most judged by.

I wonder if they look at me in my high-heels, make-up and cleavage and think that just because I spend the time and effort to put myself together such, that I am shallow; that I have nothing better to do; that I have to get attention this way because I have nothing else to offer. Of course, anyone who has a conversation with me quickly learns that I am quite bright, erudite, and emotionally intelligent as well.

The rituals I engage in to enhance my femininity are just that. Rituals. Things I do that make me feel good, empowered, beautiful, sexy. I would be all of those things even if I chose to express myself differently, but this is me now. And the time I spend on myself translates as self-care. There is even a bit of a meditative quality to it all for me. The time I spend applying make-up or doing my own mani/pedi, is me time. It is not shallow or self-centered. If everyone made more time for self-care, we would all be better off and more balanced.

I think many people (whoever they are/however they identify), are intimidated by a beautiful, sexy woman who is also smart and powerful. So they try to put her in a box. They will get over it – or not. Just keep being who you are and don’t ever let anyone make you feel you are less than. Eventually, like-minded people will be drawn in and perhaps a few blockheads will learn a valuable lesson, just by having your example to observe.

[TrixieSwizzle]

Sometimes I believe that we are our own worst enemy! I am not sure that with age comes your own convictions of yourself, that no one can diminish you as a person. Be yourself and let others take note of that fact! I am a great contradiction of terms. I play FABULOUS Fantasy Football but I wear big earrings to the draft, my hair is BLEACHED blonde but I play ditzy when it suits me, I am ME! And Sunshine you are you! If people, butches, whoever, don't appreciate that its their loss!!

I don't ever get the "nod". You know the nod ~ gay girls do it to each other to acknowledge even if they don't know each other they realize they are family. I tried to do it once and my friends were like "Really? You look like you are doing the I Dream of Jeannie nod!" So I don't do it anymore. Oh well, I know what I am and I probably didn't want to "nod" to them anyway!

I don't know you, but you seem articulate, smart, and with a fab sense of style. Stay you!! Let others think when you walk away "Wow, I would have loved to get to know her..."

[gaea]

this is a most sensitive topic.

as a young girl who had a shapely figure with dark hair and dark skin and the prettiest brown eyes i was teased relentlessly so by my biological sisters, i was also smart very smart, i cant remember a time i couldn't read or do math in my head, i cant remember a time when i couldn't remember things, things a 3 year old shouldn't have even known and yet i remembered and this intimidated my mother. i had the "cute" factor and the smart factor and i was emotionally and mentally beat down by the people that should have been my biggest support in life.

by the time i reached junior high i was quiet and reserved and actually feared being hated by others based on my home experience, thus i dumbed down and hid "me" from the world.

i became a mother at 15 and so i invested all i had in my children i didn't have to worry about anything or anyone else because i could teach them and i did.

at 25 i came out and the butch i hooked up with decided for me that i should not wear the feminin clothing i so loved (her own insecurities) nor wear make up nor be who i was, that lasted 8 years too long ....i did not realize i intimidated her as well, i though she accepted me for me, took me awhile however i woke up to all the bs and i bailed took my kids stepped out on my own and have grown stronger over the last decade (geez).

im still told i intimidate hahaha my bosses have told me that as they threaten to fire me for being too "smart" (really???) I crave a job that would allow me to work from home and that my intelligence would be that of one that is appreciated and not feared, i just honestly don't know how to accomplish that. it is frustrating for sure.

i dress feminin and i done my make-up and i feel good about me, i dislike that i have to not show my intelligence at work however i can do that elsewhere in which i often do in which i often get "you intimidate me" wtf? very frustrating.

for me how i see the world, everyone is unique in and of them self they are wonderful even when they cant see it. they are built to be exactly who they are meant to be why pick on anyone? every single person is intelligent and every intelligent being differs than the one sitting next to you.

little_ms_sunshyne said it best when she said fuck em

and this reminds me of what my dad would have said, he would have said to me

"if they cant take a joke fuck 'em"

be who you are always, all ways stay strong and persevere regardless of what others think, because at the end of the day your the one who goes to sleep with you therefore your the "one" that matters most.

[Star Anise]

After all these comments reminding me to be true to myself and "fuck 'em" if they can't accept me for who I am (which for the most part I tend to think) I am wondering exactly what got me into such an upset state the other night.

Possibly it is lingering loneliness and the fact that I am still recovering from a recent break up...

If I am really honest with myself, I will admit that I do sort of "lose myself" in relationships, as I shape myself for the other person, allow them define me. Then at some later point freak out because I don't know who I am any more.

This femme style, particularly the style I have when I am single seems the most "natural" to me, I always come back to it regardless of how I experiment. I could speculate that perhaps it is due to the fact that when I was a child, I was my mother's personal life size doll to dress as she saw fit. She set out my "outfits" for me right up to my early teens, and it was just so much easier to let her than to face her disappointment and sulking.

When I was invited to “play dates” I was dressed in a very “girly” dessert-like creation when the other kids wore t-shirts and jeans etc. I couldn’t play the rough games as it might ruin my good clothes so I would sit around like some fragile doll on the shelf.

Some might argue that perhaps this would cause me to rebel, and do the opposite now, dress butch and deny that part of my upbringing.
Or perhaps it is that I want to finally get to play in my “costume” and potentially get it “mussed up.”


I tend to think that everyone has an intentional expression with regards to their clothes, and I think that along with our personalities there are conditioned aspects from a myriad of external sources. Unless one is raised completely isolated, I don’t think anyone can claim to be wholly original and not influenced by any social construct.


In this respect I feel that largely throughout my life I have moved from one “uniform” or "costume" to the other. First it was my mother, then it was my peers who were very trend conscious, I went through the phase of attempting to masculinise myself and don what I thought was the “lesbian” uniform, then when I was exasperated by not fitting this form I chose femme and it was a style that seemed to represent me in deeper emotional ways.


So I guess essentially what I am trying to say is that it is somewhat ironic to be judged for my “uniform/costume” from someone who is also wearing their own self assigned “uniform/costume.”


Lastly


Thank you again for the wonderful responses, I was a bit self-conscious about how whiney the first post sounded, and I was no doubt seeking reassurance, but it was how I was feeling and I am grateful for those kind words.

[Quintease]

I'm another who believes that if they feel the need to put you down in order to build themselves up, fuck 'em off. The only person I dated who honestly believed that as a femme, I should be submissive, quiet and stupid, turned out to be an abusive con.

She lied to me throughout the relationship and patted herself on the back for being so clever when I trusted her. She assaulted me and convinced herself that my friends would consider her version of the story more credible than mine, they didn't. She was also intimidated by my sexual experience (I've been around ) so used to try to make me feel bad about it. All this had nothing to do with her butch identity or my long hair, and everything to do with the fact that she was an idiot.

Honestly, why waste your life with the worthless when there are really great people out there??

[TrixieSwizzle]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I'm another who believes that if they feel the need to put you down in order to build themselves up, fuck 'em off. The only person I dated who honestly believed that as a femme, I should be submissive, quiet and stupid, turned out to be an abusive con.

She lied to me throughout the relationship and patted herself on the back for being so clever when I trusted her. She assaulted me and convinced herself that my friends would consider her version of the story more credible than mine, they didn't. She was also intimidated by my sexual experience (I've been around ) so used to try to make me feel bad about it. All this had nothing to do with her butch identity or my long hair, and everything to do with the fact that she was an idiot.

Honestly, why waste your life with the worthless when there are really great people out there??

I think I know that butch!!! lol...do you think she moved to Illinois????

[iridium]

Originally Posted by Star Anise

I do like to dress up and I tend to sit more in the high femme end…

I feel like butch women don’t take me seriously, and treat me like an idiot, or dismiss me as being shallow simply for the fact that I am wearing cosmetics, and feminine clothes and (most importantly for me) having fun with my clothes!

Its important to understand when this dismissal occurs whether percieved or real . If it is before you are engaged in conversation, then perhaps the issue has more to do with signals being broadcast (I am happy.. i am depressed). If you go out alone, you are more likely to look unhappy as your true spirit is not on display. If its after engaging in conversation that the dismissal occurs then nothing you wear (as long as its appropriate) will trump what you say.

Like yourself I too go out in high femme. I sometimes get uncomfortable with the notion that no one else is dressed as such. Perhaps you feel a bit uncomfortable being the only one dressed high femme and this discomfort is being picked up by those you wish to attract. Sometimes I wish there were club nights exclusively designated to butch femme with dress codes so I don't feel self conscious.

[CherylNYC]

Is it me, or are most of the answers in this thread focusing on what the OP may have done to bring ill treatment upon herself? When I read that a woman, particularly a feminine presenting woman, is being dismissed or presumed to be stupid, I understand it to mean that plain old garden variety misogyny is at work. In our society ALL women are almost always presumed to have foggier, less disciplined minds, best suited to shopping and child rearing. When women are hyper feminine they're even more likely to be burdened with those assumptions. Unfortunately, butches can be just as infuriatingly sexist as men when they encounter a display of high femininity. This discussion reminds me of how women are told that it's their responsibility to avoid sexual assault, and if they are assaulted they must have been carrying themselves in a way that invited it.

Sure, women are often socialised into presenting ourselves as less assertive and less confident. Sure, that often means that others take us less seriously. Yes, of course when we feel more confident we're treated with more respect. BUT just being a feminine woman, regardless of our intelligence or self confidence, means that many people will privilege males over us. And sometimes butches will do the same.

[Hollylane]

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Is it me, or are most of the answers in this thread focusing on what the OP may have done to bring ill treatment upon herself? When I read that a woman, particularly a feminine presenting woman, is being dismissed or presumed to be stupid, I understand it to mean that plain old garden variety misogyny is at work. In our society ALL women are almost always presumed to have foggier, less disciplined minds, best suited to shopping and child rearing. When women are hyper feminine they're even more likely to be burdened with those assumptions. Unfortunately, butches can be just as infuriatingly sexist as men when they encounter a display of high femininity. This discussion reminds me of how women are told that it's their responsibility to avoid sexual assault, and if they are assaulted they must have been carrying themselves in a way that invited it.

Sure, women are often socialised into presenting ourselves as less assertive and less confident. Sure, that often means that others take us less seriously. Yes, of course when we feel more confident we're treated with more respect. BUT just being a feminine woman, regardless of our intelligence or self confidence, means that many people will privilege males over us. And sometimes butches will do the same.

I agree. I was thinking the same thing as I was reading through some of the posts here. I think that there are quite a few assumptions that it must be a vibe she is giving off, which does not leave a lot of room for people being responsible for their own behaviors, or realizing that this type of thing can and does happen.

In my experience, not all butches or men, not even a majority of them, behave this way. But, I have encountered this type of misogyny in both the straight and gay community (even from gay men).

I have had a few butches/men overlook my identity, strong femme, and mistake the "femme" for weakness and/or lack of intelligence. I like to think that this is not related to how I present physically, or the manner in which I dress.

This behavior usually comes across as overbearing, but I also feel that it is rooted in the misogynistic idea, that because I am female, and assert myself in a gentle way when communicating with others (this comes from upbringing, but both of my parents are this way, so it is a learned behavior that is not related to misogyny), that I must need someone to tell me what to think, what to feel, what to do, and feel the need for their protection.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by Star Anise

Before I came out “officially” I confess that I had this strange notion that to be a lesbian, I would have to be more butch, and I did experiment with becoming more masculine in both mannerism and clothing style. However it didn’t take me too long to realise that this simply wasn’t who I am, it was an ill fitting costume.

And lately (I am not sure whether it is happening more, whether I am noticing it more, or whether I am just being more sensitive to it) but I feel like butch women don’t take me seriously, and treat me like an idiot, or dismiss me as being shallow simply for the fact that I am wearing cosmetics, and feminine clothes and (most importantly for me) having fun with my clothes!

I can definitely relate to this. When I first came out, I tried going soft butch too and I really thought that this was what was expected of me but it felt very strange. It wasn't me at all.

Yes, on the rare occasions I do go out to clubs, I don't feel I'm taken seriously by anybody. I've even been accused of being straight and looking for a one-night hook-up with a woman. That was horrible. No, few lesbians take me seriously, even if, from their appearance, they seem to be on the more butch end of the spectrum. I almost feel like I'll have to start dressing down in order to pick someone up. Luckily, I don't much care about that right now and am not looking for a relationship anytime soon.

Some can't understand why so many members of the butch-femme community find community online instead of "out there" because we clearly recognize each other here but it can be much more difficult in the "real" world. My father told me to "stop meeting people online". He said you can meet people in a grocery store. No Dad, YOU can meet someone in a grocery store. I go out and men hit on me or look at me (and it makes me incredibly uncomfortable because I don't know how to respond to it other than walk away). Women very rarely do. This is the femme conundrum.