Why lipstick lesbians have to keep coming out of the closet

[Quintease]

I don't use the term 'lipstick lesbian' myself, but I thought her point was valid.

[aishah]

i really like this article. thank you for sharing it.

i especially like that she points out the distrust of what we say about ourselves (even after we come out), and the fact that we're held accountable for other people's misconceptions.

[CherylNYC]

"It is radical to present yourself femininely knowing that masculine is still valued and privileged, even in a queer community made up entirely of females. It is a radical and subversive act to continually go through the ritual of beauty in spite of alienation from one group and unwanted attention from another. Being femme will stop being radical once it is seen as valid as being butch is."

I could print this on a t-shirt and wear it every day.

[Miss Scarlett]

i love my femininity/girly-girl side and everything that goes with it...curls, make-up, perfume and all other soft & pretty things. But i also embrace all the non-girly-girl things and make them my own. Femme is my core (just as being a submissive is my core)...so i don't need the accessories to make any sort of transformation...if i'm in grubbies because i've been turning a wrench on something i'm just as Femme as when i'm wearing make-up and something very feminine & pretty. Though i do so love the accessories...lol

At times in the past i felt the need to "explain myself" since i was often mistaken for a straight woman, but i no longer do this...perhaps this comes with age...i don't know. What i do know is that i am who i am...a Femme lesbian who is attracted to Butch lesbians...if the world can't figure that out it's not my problem...it only matters to me and my partner...

[laruss]

I guess you could say I am a 'Femme' but I don't really feel it. I hide well in the hetro world because of my look, but in turn it can be a struggle in the community. I don't look 'gay', whatever that means. Getting a woman to take me seriously when I ask them out has been an issue because they look at me and assume we don't play for the same team.

[Ebon]

My favorite part of this article.


"It is radical to present yourself femininely knowing that masculine is still valued and privileged, even in a queer community made up entirely of females."

[princessbelle]

That is such a great article Quintease!!! Thanks for sharing that.

I appreciate all of it, but this really hit home...

"In some ways my invisibility is preferable. I can safely move throughout the mainstream world untethered to a certain identity, while butch lesbians wear their sexuality on their sleeve. My girlfriend can rarely go into a public bathroom without getting a second, confused glance. That’s hard. But she’s also a smash in specifically gay spaces, she gets to fully embody an identity, and she’d get laid more often than the girl in the skirt we’re unsure about."

So basically in the straight world, most of the time, many of us "femmes" have straight privilege and most butch women do not. I don't get the stares in the bathroom ect. But, it is such a two edged sword. I also don't get the acknowledgement of being gay around my people. It does make it more apparent to them now that i walk with my butch, but it is still questionable to family, i'm sure.

I've writtin about this before but one of my first lesbian parties i went to i was so excited but was treated differently. There was not one single femme there, that i could tell, and i was a total outsider. People would stop talking when i walked up to them and just glare at me.

Back then, i certainly felt like i didn't fit in the straight world or the gay world and that was really difficult and i spent many nights crying about it. I was very much alone in this world.

Being femme is not as easy as it looks. Being femme is hard sometimes. Being femme brings it's own set of problems and issues and difficulties with fitting in.

But. I am now proud of who i am. I could never be anything else if i stay true to myself. And I plan on it.

[Morgan]

I have thought about this topic many times, and would like to share my thoughts. I have talked with many of my friends who unfortunately for reasons unknown to me, have stated that they would not date women who are femme. I do not understand this, but have told them to not judge the women I think are beautiful and who I find very attractive. A femme to me is a powerful woman, she has grace, beauty, class, style, a way of carrying herself which embodies all of the feminine traits. She is something really special, and I admire her for not bending or conforming to society's myth or the gay society's myth of what a lesbian should look like or act like.
I find femme women to be very special and I admire them very much....

[starryeyes]

We are are superheroes.... Crushing stereotypes left and right, causing straighties to take a second glance and scratch their heads when we casually grab our Butches hands while walking in public. We cause them to question themselves and think about their own misconceptions about the Gay community. We fiercely defend our Butches and our community. We educate and answer ridculious questions. We open people's minds. We are amazing. We are powerful Femme sistas, we are strong, and we don't let anyone forget that! Femme Pride!!! :-D

[Miss Scarlett]

Originally Posted by starryeyes

We are are superheroes.... Crushing stereotypes left and right, causing straighties to take a second glance and scratch their heads when we casually grab our Butches hands while walking in public. We cause them to question themselves and think about their own misconceptions about the Gay community. We fiercely defend our Butches and our community. We educate and answer ridculious questions. We open people's minds. We are amazing. We are powerful Femme sistas, we are strong, and we don't let anyone forget that! Femme Pride!!! :-D

Amen & the heck with all of those stereotypes!

i love taking Clay's hand or arm in public and am fiercy proud of hym!

Lifting my glass of sweet tea...Here's to Femme Pride & my beautiful Femme Sisters everywhere!!!

Hmmm...should we design our own Femme Pride flag/banner?

[mariamma]

Thanks for sharing. People do think I'm straight. I like to dance and often attract the attention of men only. There are no gay clubs in Eugene anymore so the lgbt community clubs at queer-friendly establishments. Men are stunned when I don't give out my number because I'm lesbian. Almost all do not know what being femme means. Maybe we can get a femme-visibility movement going?

[BullDog]

Thanks for sharing the article Quintease and for all the great responses in this thread. It really bugs me when people talk about how butches/FTMS/trans guys have it so much harder or that femmes have it easy. Femmes have their own issues to face and some that I never encounter.

It is sad but true that even among lesbians that are not butch or femme that masculine seems to be valued over feminine. Femmes are just as lesbian/queer/gay as any androgynous or masculine-looking female. Yes Starry, I agree, you are Superheroes.

[mariamma]

It is a radical and subversive act to continually go through the ritual of beauty in spite of alienation from one group and unwanted attention from another. Being femme will stop being radical once it is seen as valid as being butch is. But for now, I choose to celebrate my girlyness and my gayness. I choose to say that getting gussied up is as essential and important to me as my queerness is, and that I wouldn’t give up either to become culturally comprehensible or belong to some imagined club. That would be the real tragedy.

I came out again almost two years ago. No on believes I'm not bisexual, even my kids. Straight men like me a lot but I'm not interested in dating men ever again. I was with men by choice, for children and the sight of a butch woman broke me of my habit. I was considering being poly with a couple, saw her and suddenly never wanted to have sex with a man ever again. Men could give me babies but truthfully were a substitute for butch women. As I'm learning now, a Daddy.
What's a femmilicious babe to do? There is this weird stigma against femmes by some women (lesbian and straight) because we have curves and proudly display our finesse in life while dancing in 4" heels. And I don't do make up except perfume and lip balm. I love being a vibrant radiant beauty (even though I'm missing teeth). I have lived this way since 14 and will hot tub with, pick flowers with, dance in bra only by the light of the moon with, giggle with, swim in open waters with, cry with depth and love with euphoria all women until the day I die. That's just how this babe rolls. And obviously my sister from another mister, the author of this article.
I initially read a few paragraphs and for some reason didn't like it. I'm so glad I gave the piece another peek.
Anyways, I have writing to do...

[yotlyolqualli]

Hello! This article really spoke to me, on many levels. It made me take a deep breath, sit back and examine my own feelings of invisibility and inability to somehow find a "niche" where I fit in.

I was raised Mennonite, and always "knew" women's role in life and in the family. What I didn't realize, until later on in life, was that trying to live that role, would be not only extremely difficult for me, but damned near impossible.

My parents were strict and we girls wore dresses. The only time pants were permitted, was when it was cold out, we were going to be out in that cold, and even then, we were only permitted to wear them under a skirt or dress. Things changed in my teen years, but I've always felt most comfortable in a dress.

When I realized I was gay at age 30 (took me a long time to figure out why I just didn't seem to like men..lol) I not only knew why the knight in shining armor of my girlhood dreams, was always a girl, I also realized why nothing ever seemed to click for me. It seemed like I was always one second behind, one moment behind and I was missing out on so much.

I was excited and terrified and horrified, all at the same time. I was gay. For some, realizing that is a relief. For me it was like a "light bulb" moment, and then I was devastated. You can't go 30 years through of life, being taught that homosexuality is a sin, then realizing that you are gay, without paralyzing and crippling fear grabbing hold of your throat and ravaging your soul. But eventually, I was able to grasp the reality and over time, learned that I am perfect, just like any other creature in God's creation.

So, it was with great excitement, that I stepped "out" not only to my family, friends and church (I got kicked out..lol) but I was stepping into my "niche" the place I had been longing for, for my entire life.

What I got, instead, was a slap in the face. No one believed I was gay. For a long time, not even my family would believe it. When people saw me, they saw ME... the mennonite.. the sunday school teacher... the worship leader... the "shore" girl... and in the gay community, I was straight. I wanted so badly and so desperately to fit in, that I stopped wearing dresses, stopped being "girly" emotionally, (stopped claiming to be a christian.. another topic)stopped doing what came naturally to me and started "acting" gay. I was welcomed then, with open arms.

But, once again I felt like I was one second too slow, one moment behind and I began to rebel against all of it. I started doing all the things I used to do, and when I did, I was accused of "going straight." So, once again, I allowed myself to be drawn back in to that world, to that society. I eventually met and became involved with a woman in a relationship that lasted over 5 years. Every time I would move back to anything that even closely related to who I was before, I would get an instant reaction from my girlfriend, which always started and ended with the question, "are you going back to men?"

There were other issues within our relationship (her belief that monogamy is for straight people... again another topic) but this one always seemed to be the "hot spot" that would result in fights, arguments and me always backing down and conforming. I found out that iking butch women, meant that I really wanted to be with a man, acting too femme meant I wasn't really gay and finally, one day, my mind just screamed and my strength finally woke up and said "hello!"

I became determined to be who I felt I was, to live how my heart told me to live. Yay! End of story, right? Afraid not.

When I stopped allowing myself to be influenced by the "non B&F" lesbians, I started doing what I had and wanted to do. When someone found out that I built a deck in my ex's back yard, I was butch. When someone found out I had designed and sewn my god daughters christening gown, I was femme. The roles of butch and femme, seemed to me, almost as rigid as the "non B&F" lesbian roles. So, I started to identify as androgynous, simply to stop the whole "argument" of butch or femme. Once again, I felt out of place.

Finally, one night, while laying in a hospital bed, I just had myself a talk with God, Jesus, and myself. We all agreed that I was exactly who God had created me to be and no matter what others thought about me, I was a woman. Period. I was a woman who was a nurturer, a woman who could build a deck, a woman who could fix things, cook things, grow things and a woman who was femme. A femme who is drawn to butch women. A woman, who could still be a christian, a wife (and a "husband" when needed) and even a mother (not yet..lol). I was someone unique, and while I may never fit into someone elses "niche" I could and have, created my own.

Now, I have found my "niche". I have found the place I truly fit into and it's one I treasure and one that has an open door with a welcome mat. While I will always proudly identify as a lesbian, I also proudly identify as a non-comformist.

[rustedrims]

I have a question..
Living in the Mennonite lifestyle didnt you tell any of your friends..??..Did any of them have the same feelings you had..??..Any attracted to other girls..Wondering..???..
Put a dress on me and i will out myself sooo fast it will make that sewing machine jam..!!!..I know i couldnt live or dress like that..NO..!!..

Yo..
You gotta be who you are or you will be misriable every day..
Think you are better off in here with us..
Welcome again..

s..

[yotlyolqualli]

I was so very far in denial that I refused to believe it myself. There was a man, on my father's side of the family; a distant cousin, his name was Wendell. It was a known fact that Wendell was gay and it was not spoken highly of. In fact, it was made light of and while I can't say anyone was ever cruel to him, not even cruel when they spoke so lightly of him, but I knew, even as a child, that being "that way" was not approved of, nor thought highly of.

Add into that, the factor that I was raised in such a conservative faith, I was never, ever, in any doubt that the feelings I was experiencing were NOT normal and indeed were sinful in their very nature. I contributed that to what I now see as the perfect storm, if you will.

I was abused as a child, by two men, not of my family or church family. Women, sadly, within that culture, the conservative ones, were taught to believe (although the Mennonite church is moving away from this idealism) that men simply could not control themselves. This was why women dressed so modestly and did not call attention to themselves. I'm not suggesting that the church convinced me that I was to blame for being molested, but the culture laid that foundation and once those feelings get a foot hold into the mind of an impressionable child, who already feels guilty, it creates the perfect storm.

So I believed what I was feeling was sinful and that I was sinful. My mind, the turmoil I had been through, the guilt that I felt, ate at me, until I believed that I was already something sinful and ugly to God, without redeemable qualities. When I allowed myself to actually feel anything towards any sex, it automatically registered in me, as being horribly sinful and wrong.

My first inkling that something wasn't quite "right" to me, was shortly after I hit puberty, at age nine. I was spending Sunday afternoon with my best friend and her family, between morning and even church services, which we would often do. Twila and I were playing "house" which, trust me, was something that girls were encouraged to do. So, Twila was the "Dad" and I was the "Mom" and we were in the hay loft, acting as though we were going to bed. Twila, bless her heart, leaned down and kissed me. A simple peck on the lips that lasted maybe 3 seconds tops, but that kiss sent a shock through me, a very very physically pleasurable shock, but a shock none the less.

It scared me. I never spent another sunday afternoon with her again. Not because I was afraid of her, but because I was afraid that I would somehow "taint" her, because I was so sinful and dirty.

It wasn't until years later that the idea that I could be gay, actually formed in my mind and I spent the next 20 years trying to hide it, to supress it, to not acknowledge it, indeed to PROVE that I was wrong. When I met my first g/f, which was basically an experimental fling, I realized that I was gay. I realized that I could no longer deny it, or control it nor did I want too. But even then, the years of faith, the Bible college, the year spent in the mission field, the years spent as a sunday/bible school teacher, as a worship leader as head of committees and various roles within the church, kept me from believing that I was anything but sinful.

So, admitting that I was gay, to myself, was not a moment of "that's why I felt that way" but rather a moment of "OK! That's it! I can't deny myself anymore, I give up!" It took me a year, living with a woman who was NOT nice, to say the least, to finally allow my faith and my sexuality, begin to merge. It was when I truly felt, deep within my soul, that I was God's creation and God doesn't make mistakes, that I could allow myself to see myself as not only normal, not only NOT sinful or an abomination, but as a Christian, who also happened to be a lesbian.

When I stopped labeling myself as something bad, allowed myself to acknowledge my still deep and abiding faith, and embraced who I was, fully and completely (lots of therapy to get over the abuse... then lots of therapy to get over the not nice woman), that's when I began to emmerge out of my shell.

As for dressing as a Mennonite? For me, that was all that I knew. It was normal for me. I felt most comfortable in a dress, with the prayer cap. In fact, it allowed me to escape into a semblance of normalcy. When I came out to myself, then to my family and then to my church, even before I "left" the church, I stopped wearing the prayer cap and I stopped wearing the ultra conservative dresses. However, I still preferred dresses. It was what I was most comfortable in.

As for leaving the church. Mennonites practice shunning. That's where an elder is sent to "confront" a sinning member of the church, and try to councel that person into compliance with the church's teaching. If that doesn't work, then the entire board of elders will approach the sinning member (with wives if said member is a woman) and if that doesn't bring the menber into compliance, they are shunned. Sometimes to the extreme. When a person is shunned, not even the parents or siblings, or even children and spouses are permitted to eat with that person or talk to that person or pray with that person. Even in the most loving fashion (and most shunnings are done in love) they are harsh and very very strict in their view of what compliance is. The point of them is scripturally based, they are done to "lovingly shame" that member into coming back into compliance with the teachings of the church.

That was where I used the brain God gave me. Most of the people I went to church with, were siblings, aunts, uncles and cousins. In order for me to continue to go to church, if I chose too, and in order for my family to be able to relate to me without the overshadowing of the shunning, I simply withdrew my membership from the church, but not the congreghation.

I probably just answered more than what you wanted to know..., but there it is. As far as anyone else feeling that way? Not that I know of and Twila is now married with a little girl, a good husband and is happy, genuinely happy, so I know that kiss didn't mean anything to her or do anything "for" her.

One more thing, being Mennonite isn't just a religious experience, it is a culture, a beautiful culture, steeped in tradition and a very simplistic way of life. Even as a lesbian, I want to be the "wife", the role I truly believe God has called me to. A wife in the Mennonite traditional sense of the word. Someone who see's her "husband" as head of the family of the relationship and even as head of the spiritual health of the relationship. Most Mennonite women are submissive to their spouses. I am no different, my ideal spouse just happens to be another woman, a butch woman who feels the need to BE that head of the family.

I like it here, it has a very nice feel to it and I thank you rustedrims, for your interest and your welcome... *S

[rustedrims]

Hey Yo..

Just got done reading your post..
I sat back in my chair and said hum out loud..
There are a million thoughts going on in my mind now.
Thoughts of my x and the creepy things her dad did to her as a kid and her mom knowing..sister..??..
There is a word you used that stuck out in my mind i will ask you about a little later..I need to go outside and ride around on the mower for a while and think..I know what i have gone through finding a place in life where i was accepted and comfortable..I cant imagine living in that enviroment and being who you are..The stress has got to be unbearable..
You did answer my questions and the ones i was going to ask..Thank-you so much for your honesty..After reading what you wrote i am guessing it was still weighing on your mind..Being "let go" from your family,friends and maybe comfort zone to be by yourself..Maybe a blessing in disguise..If you were standing in front of me right now i would give you the Biggest Butch Hug..

s..

[femmsational]

I came out later in life. I was married to a man when I figured out I was in fact a big old dyke. I'd never been with a woman in any way but had always been unhappy. I'm not sure how to explain it other than it just dawned on me why I always got a little flutter in the tummy around butch women and men never did a thing for me. So, I got divorced and proceeded to try and figure out *my* gay. Or how I fit into the world as a lesbian.

I didn't know what to do so I hit a lesbian bar, had a couple flings, and joined a lesbian hiking club I found locally on line. It took almost a year before they even believed me. Which I can understand. I had been married and I was REAL new to being who I should have been all along.

It was so frustrating. I sure as hell wasn't going to change who I was, or how I presented, I was gay, not fashion confused??? I liked make-up, skirts, heels but I also wore jeans and boots to work every day and came home smelling like every nasty horse thing you can think of.

At first it bothered me. I met someone and began a year long relationship. It didn't work out and when I tried to tell her kindly that I was sorry but it wasn't working for me, she blew a gasket and yelled at me...."I should know better about you straight girls." This from someone I dated for a year

At that point I was pissed. I was who I was. If "they" don't get it, that's on "them." I had a moment. Got really mad one night and got one kanji tattoo on my right wrist that represents a rainbow and another on my left wrist that represents woman.....and I felt better. I stopped caring and just started living my life. I met someone who "got it" and dated them for four years. It seems to get easier the older I get. I guess I'm unwilling to give that much power to people who don't get me.

I don't "come out" today at all. I feel like if someone asks me if I'm married I just say yeah, my husband, she's wonderful. They either get it or they don't lol. If someone asks me about me, I'm filling in THEIR blank with my answer. So I really don't consider it me coming out. I'm already out.

I do understand the frustration about being unseen as who I am. But I just can't bring myself to care anymore. Unless of course someone acts a fool about it.

This is just how it works for ME!!! I hope I haven't offened anyone.


Take care,
julie