"Butch" and "Femme" - Truly Antiquated Terms or More Marginalization?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Lynn

Do you feel these observations apply across the board, or mainly to youth who are coming of age in an academic setting? I find that my own peers had very different experiences of themselves and their identities depending on whether or not they went to college.

And if they live un non-urban settings or non-coastal settings.

Students at Walter State in East Tennessee are likely to have a different experience than universities in NYC or San Francisco.

Still, I have to say that Butch and Femme as IDs have only been popular for maybe 3 years since the 70's.

Has that detered me? Nah.

I still love BullDykes.

and

Chocolate

[Darth Denkay]

Butch and Femme aren't going anywhere. They started around the 1940s, and although they had to shift out of sight during the feminist movement, they certainly didn't go away. We've got young members on this site and the other who embrace butch and femme. As time goes on we are developing more gender descriptors, so maybe less folks are ascribing to butch or femme, but they certainly aren't going away. Mark my words...

[Arwen]

This is a fascinating discussion.

For me, I use words that suit me. I always try to honor what another person wants to be called.

I think G pointed it out best about his experiences in different groups--and how that fits him depending on where he is.

Makes me think of Albert from the Birdcage when he says, "I never know where we are until I hear our name pronounced."

For really personal reasons, I have not identified as a lesbian for several years. In fact, it makes me downright uncomfortable "in house" but that is how folks know me outside of the queer community. To them (mostly straight) calling me queer or a dyke bothers them. So to them, I'm a lesbian.

I think the point that youth creates our language has legs but I also know that language changes, evolves, twists back on itself. Are good things still "phat" and "sick" or are they "swell" and "keen"?

Why do we need alternative words for Butch and Femme unless someone is uncomfortable or perhaps embarrassed by the appellation? I totally get Stud as a term but Aggressive makes me feel a bit uneasy simply because of how I use that word. And, as a few have pointed out...is it only Butch that is getting refined/redefined?

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I must have totally missed something which wouldn't be anything new, could someone pls point me (by # what-ever)to the post that said they were "antiquated"?

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

Ignored seems to suggest it was intentional, and I'm uncertain of the relevance of that. Is there some? Relevance, that is? I'm simply trying to determine what it is you're trying to contribute here.

Regardless of what was said elsewhere, this is a compelling thread here.

[Diva]

As SF has said early on, I just want to add my and say a big "Thank You" to Selly for sticking her neck out and jumping into this conversation.

I hold You way up for that, Selly, and commend You.

If I'm putting words in Your mouth here, Sel, correct me, please, but I don't think ~ as even this discussion is evolving ~ she is pointing to individuals and telling us we can't use words which are comfortable to us......perhaps this is her observation within the group of folks with whom she is most involved....or perhaps what's hip (sorry...that's a 60's word which has evolved, I beleve )in today's Youth Culture.

I used to refer to my dear, late Father as 'being set in his ways'.....I guess some of us are, too......that can be ok.

[BullDog]

I'm confused as well. Is this discussion in reference to Q's video? If so I didn't see anything about being antiquated. Something else in particular? The concept in general?

Just wondering, cuz I loved the video and I am not sure I am understanding this conversation.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Yeah what Met said...... ( and I notice was ignored... )

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Medusa

There has been some discussion on the "other" site about whether or not the terms "Butch" and "Femme" are "antiquated" terms. Im curious as to what people think about this.
There were some thoughts about how the terms dont feel "accessible" to younger folks, folks of color, etc.


Thoughts?

Bulldog, this is the OP, and I'm not seeing anywhere that there is a video reference here. Only until Isadora's post (#4) was there any mention of a video.

I didn't feel as though this thread was difficult to follow at all. It's a calm, non~drama~filled civil conversation.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

I don't think it was directed toward You....NONE of us responded to it. But then, while I have responded to a couple or 3, I haven't responded to everyone who's posted here.

And I got it, too, that, when You put the term in "quotes", that COULD have been interpreted as Your word......

[BullDog]

I'm just trying to follow the conversation.

[Medusa]

The holiday cheer must just be overwhelming folks today

I just wanted to say too that when I read the thread over there about "old terms in a new era", I was hearing the "old" part in conjunction with "new era" as in, "out with the old, in with the new" or "old-fashioned" or "outdated" (which is the definition of "antiquated").

It's my read of it, I own it

[Unndunn]

Originally Posted by Selenay

You know, we really don't listen to certain types of music. I haven't really heard baroque music on z100 recently. . . And I can't really tell you the last time I heard a friend tell me that they were going to go study their hurdy gurdy or harpsichord. They aren't extinct, no, but they are for all cultural purposes dead.

There is room for all, of course, but if the youth does not embrace a term, it will die. Just like with language, or clothing, or music, it needs a base to create it and a youth to continue the tradition. Or are we going to go back to Latin now?

I never said that I, or anyone else, doesn't respect the path that has been paved, but I'm willing to bet that if you ask 80% of the people on my extremely queer college (and by extremely queer, I mean the only state university in New York that offers a G/L Studies major, which coincides with the GLBTU, trans-action, drag queen fall ball, ad nauseam...) what the butch/femme dynamic is, they wouldn't have any idea.


Perhaps I'll start a survey and get back to you with more accurate numbers. . . I'll make sure I include on that survey "Stonewall" to find out who actually knows what stonewall is, what its significance was, and if they've been there.

I think it's natural to have this reaction as a young person. Everything feels new. When you hit 30 or even 40+ (gasp!) you start to see that things come in cycles. Music and clothing are just a few examples. In 10 years there will be another generation of young adults telling you that your culture is dead. Five years after that they'll all be wearing it/listening to it and calling it retro. You're right that you probably won't hear baroque music on Z100 but if you try moving your dial you'll find it there.

[Diva]

Originally Posted by Medusa

The holiday cheer must just be overwhelming folks today

I just wanted to say too that when I read the thread over there about "old terms in a new era", I was hearing the "old" part in conjunction with "new era" as in, "out with the old, in with the new" or "old-fashioned" or "outdated" (which is the definition of "antiquated").

It's my read of it, I own it

No, no....I think we all did.....and like all good and wonderful things, it has evolved.

[Unndunn]

Originally Posted by Medusa

The holiday cheer must just be overwhelming folks today

I just wanted to say too that when I read the thread over there about "old terms in a new era", I was hearing the "old" part in conjunction with "new era" as in, "out with the old, in with the new" or "old-fashioned" or "outdated" (which is the definition of "antiquated").
It's my read of it, I own it

that's how I read it too. I'm butch and always will be. It doesn't matter what anyone else calls themselves.

[julieisafemme]

I JUST learned about the term femme last year and that I was one. Luckily I am in my 40s so I am ok with not being part of the hip youth culture of today. I find that I am antiquated in many ways. I'm ok with that.

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Ignored seems to suggest it was intentional, and I'm uncertain of the relevance of that. Is there some? Relevance, that is? I'm simply trying to determine what it is you're trying to contribute here.

Regardless of what was said elsewhere, this is a compelling thread here.

Based on a false presumption that some Thread, on another site, suggested that Butch & Femme, are antiquated terms.
I ma not big on trashing through false inference.

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Some days I SWEAR I check to see if its a full moon before I post.

Ok, I used "antiquated" as a way to parse the term "OLD" into what I was feeling was being said. I should have been more clear. My bad.

The verbatim, word-for-word was "Old Terms".

and just as a sidenote: whether you were talking to me or not about something being "ignored", I have been up since 6am cleaning house and have been on and off of this site all day answering emails, reported posts, and private messages, so if something is asked or said and I dont respond or reply, its prrrrooooobbbbbaabbbbblllyyyy because I just didnt see it.

You referenced Some Thread, on Some Other site.
I presume BF.com
That was not what was said, on BF.com, using that word or any other word
I have no issue with some general Thread, discussing whether or not Butch & Femme, are antiquated Terms, though why one would think they were, I don't know.
I do object to trashing of and falsely representing, the "other" site.
Call me old fashioned and antiquated, but I object to falsehoods.

[MsMerrick]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I'm confused as well. Is this discussion in reference to Q's video? If so I didn't see anything about being antiquated. Something else in particular? The concept in general?

Just wondering, cuz I loved the video and I am not sure I am understanding this conversation.

Yes it is.

[NotAnAverageGuy]

can someone put into laymans terms what antiquated means so I can understand, when I looked it up it confused me, I ain't the smartest ya know!!!!