OCCUPY WALL STREET

[JAGG]

I am going tell you my experience in realestate and forecloures. You read a story about a person. Who got sick or injuried house is in foreclosure and you think we should bail him out. I own an investment business. We buy houses that have been forclosed on . I get to see these cases up close and in person I know the details of the reasons why the house forclosed. I have been doing this for 9 years now.you can say I lack empathy, I say you are naive and lack experience and facts. Here is a real truelife case. Family with 2 kids dad gets hurt can't work. He is a welder hurt his back. Wife works teaches 3rd grade. He can't work they fall behind house goes into forclosure. 3 months later bank takes possestion. They still occupy home. Free for 3 months now . They have at least 7 different notices to vacate they don't . 5 months later bank trys to sell it at auction. We buy it. 8 months they are there for free, we knock on the door to inform them we bought their house they should have been out 8 months. We talk and agree on a plan for them to move out they are usually pretty understanding. We actually pay them 250 dollars to be moved out within the agreed time frame. His wife has a brand newDodge Dakota less than a year old. He had. Dodge ram less than 2 yrs old. And a minivan 5 years old. They were saving it for the 15yr old when he learns to drive. Nice guy we talked about everything he showed me around. He had a 55 in led tv he was. Proud to show me that all its features. And surround sound. Then he shows me the garage where he has 7 dirt bikes. He and his 2 kids, love playing in the mud. 7 dirt bikes? 3 new cars? Really? I wish I had a 55in led with suround sound.
You want to bail this poor guy out? He can't work bad back . Medical condition not his fault long term unemployed , fore closed on , he fits all your criteria. You think he is an acception to the rule? I will tell you he is not. You hear his story in the news, you don't know the facts just the sad story of an innocent family kicked out,into the cold because of unforesseen medical problems. I flipped about 21 houses all but 4 fit your criteria. Out of those 17 I will tell you only 1 fit the real picture, the one the media paints . I will give you more examples later on.

[AtLast]

Angela Davis- both parents college educated, professionals as well as her father a business owner. She is a graduate of an Ivy League university. And a professor.


Caesar Chavez- his father owned not only a grocery store, but a large ranch in AZ. During the Great Depression, their land was lost and never recovered by the family. Thus- how Chavez began working as a migrant worker. His roots are middle class. This is a story of many in the US during that time period.

Joan Baez (not just a folk singer)- father was one of our leading physicists (co-invented the x-ray microscope) and served as a diplomat for the US in UNESCO. His family was highly educated in seminary as was her mother’s family, originally from Scotland.

Alex Haley- both parents highly educated, his father a professor of agriculture and his mother a teacher. Very much a middle-class New York family. And well, Haley is one of our most brilliant minds and writers.

There are many civil rights movement leaders of color that did not come from poor backgrounds and were middle-class. A pet peeve of an African American man I dated in college during the 70’s was that “white people immediately assume we are all poor and from the same kinds of backgrounds“- (paraphrasing).

A central theme throughout the social movements in the 1960’s and 70’s is that college and university campuses served as fertile grounds for free speech and political activism. Access to higher education has always been slanted toward middle or upper middle-class people, even among minorities. Many did find access that were from very desperate backgrounds, but not all. After JFK’s initial “affirmative action” executive order in the early 60’s, doors opened to many that it had shut on previously.

If you go back and look at the suffrage movement, you will find a very distinct middle and upper middle class- and very white grouping of leaders. Although, take a look at African American women in the 1800’s that were part of social movements in the US.

The other thing that amazes me about these conversations is that are many of us in the age group of the 60’s and 70’s activism and were there! I had many conversations with “sisters” & “brothers” telling me that most of the people they wanted to represent had no way of taking to the streets because of their socio-economic class. But, this is only my story from one region of the US at that time.

One of my pet peeves here is that so often, one or two sentences are quoted from a post and flamed. The rest of one’s comments and thoughts are left out. One reason, I quote entire posts so that the entire context is available for other’s to look at. I do this even with lengthy posts because I don’t think is fair to “cherry pick” someone’s post and then take aim. Also, there are some members that take the time to explain where they are coming from and I think I ought to honor their entire process.


It looks like the thread is getting back to the OP’s initial ideas for discussion- good because this is really an important thing going on.

[theoddz]

Originally Posted by JustJo

This is absolutely true for a lot of people. I also wonder though about where we draw the line on believing the banks and credit card companies.

Every time I've gone to the bank for pre-approval on a mortgage, they've approved me for about double the amount that I personally felt comfortable paying and knew I could afford.

Is that their responsibility or mine?

Maybe what we need is to have more heavily regulated truth in lending, and more education about personal finances and money management in the schools. Just thinking aloud here....not really having an answer.

I understand the feeling of "screw this, I'm never going to get even on this mortgage" and the urge to walk away on the part of people who bought at the peak of the market. But what about those (like this house's previous owners) who bought low, refinanced like mad to play, and then walked away?

For me, those are two very different scenarios.

ETA: Grant, I totally agree with one thing you mentioned and then forgot to include it
In my opinion, the biggest speculators in this real estate disaster were the banks. They made loans that were absolutely ridiculously inflated, and fed the real estate bubble all along. They, of all people, should have known better....and been saner...in both the amounts they loaned on property, and on the types of loans they made.

Jo, I'm in total agreement with you on the fact that I think that too many people, in general, don't know enough about how to use money, and how financial matters work, like loans, interest, etc. Spending money is a huge emotional issue for many. How many times have we seen people refer to spending money for emotional reasons call it "retail therapy"??

As a post-Greatest Generation group of Boomers, Gen X'ers, Gen Y'ers, etc., we're used to "good times" and all of these wonderfully new gadgets, gizmos, cell phones, IPads, E-Readers, whathaveyou. More specifically, we've bought into the idea that we (generic "we") have absolute entitlement to these and that we should have them, even if it means going financially out on a limb for them and buying them with funds we don't have now (the credit card phenomenon)!! The media and sales/marketing has conditioned us to believe that. It's been pushed on us. At the same time, no one has really taught us, as a group, how money works. I recently read the book, "Rich Dad/Poor Dad" and it really hit me how even the best and most money-savy of our parents/elders never really taught us how to handle money responsibly. Oh yes, I think we've all gotten such vague direction as "don't spend more than you make", and "pay your bills on time" and, "save your money", but how many people here have honestly been taught, by their parents, or even their educational systems, how to buy a house?? What about how interest actually works, and what the various types of loans are out there?? How many people, before they entered those mortgage contracts that were sold to them by predatory lenders, took the trouble to educate themselves about the home buying process?? Did anyone ever teach these same folks to sit down with a pencil and paper (and a calculator) to do simple addition and subtraction so they could figure out for themselves how much they could spend and how much they should save?? How about figuring out a simple household budget?? Not many, let me tell you.

Money matters have gotten far more complicated, over the years, and education about these things just hasn't happened. That's how we've all been hoodwinked. If you dumb people down, you can take advantage of them. Simple as that. This is one big thing I am so angry about, in recent years. This country has been systematically dismantling our educational system and it's been happening right under our noses, while we're distracted with games, gadgets, television, too damned much entertainment and too few useful financial education programs in our schools. Does anyone remember the old Economics classes we used to have in the 60's, 70's and 80's?? Those have gone nearly entirely away. Those classes, for those who can't remember them, and those who never heard of them, were the ones that taught us how to balance a checkbook, how to make a simple household budget and how to calculate interest and use a basic expenses spreadsheet. We're just not teaching our kids these skills anymore and now an entire generation(s) has been the victim, wholesale, of financial swindling. This is criminal, but we allowed it to happen!!!!! No fucking wonder our children are afraid to face the world when they graduate from our high schools these days!!! Where is the fucking outrage???

This entire financial crisis, worldwide, is the simple result of our being completely and totally distracted by the commercial world, while the carpet was slowly being yanked out from under us. We let it happen.

IMHO, there's nothing left to do now but revolt.

I think another American Revolution is on the new horizon.

~Theo~

[Dude]

Originally Posted by JAGG

I am going tell you my experience in realestate and forecloures. You read a story about a person. Who got sick or injuried house is in foreclosure and you think we should bail him out. I own an investment business. We buy houses that have been forclosed on . I get to see these cases up close and in person I know the details of the reasons why the house forclosed. I have been doing this for 9 years now.you can say I lack empathy, I say you are naive and lack experience and facts. Here is a real truelife case. Family with 2 kids dad gets hurt can't work. He is a welder hurt his back. Wife works teaches 3rd grade. He can't work they fall behind house goes into forclosure. 3 months later bank takes possestion. They still occupy home. Free for 3 months now . They have at least 7 different notices to vacate they don't . 5 months later bank trys to sell it at auction. We buy it. 8 months they are there for free, we knock on the door to inform them we bought their house they should have been out 8 months. We talk and agree on a plan for them to move out they are usually pretty understanding. We actually pay them 250 dollars to be moved out within the agreed time frame. His wife has a brand newDodge Dakota less than a year old. He had. Dodge ram less than 2 yrs old. And a minivan 5 years old. They were saving it for the 15yr old when he learns to drive. Nice guy we talked about everything he showed me around. He had a 55 in led tv he was. Proud to show me that all its features. And surround sound. Then he shows me the garage where he has 7 dirt bikes. He and his 2 kids, love playing in the mud. 7 dirt bikes? 3 new cars? Really? I wish I had a 55in led with suround sound.
You want to bail this poor guy out? He can't work bad back . Medical condition not his fault long term unemployed , fore closed on , he fits all your criteria. You think he is an acception to the rule? I will tell you he is not. You hear his story in the news, you don't know the facts just the sad story of an innocent family kicked out,into the cold because of unforesseen medical problems. I flipped about 21 houses all but 4 fit your criteria. Out of those 17 I will tell you only 1 fit the real picture, the one the media paints . I will give you more examples later on.

Real story.
My cousin married a very successful top mortgage director guy of some sort.
Six figure income, things were great ,they bought a home ,had two kids.

Several years later he loses his job. His youngest has severe autism and
requires 24/7 care (which requires my cousin to be a stay at home mom)
Now their oldest (12 years old) has been diagnosed with diabetes and
has to have daily insulin shots and medical testing to get her all balanced
enough to attend school.
They gave up their two car's which required payments for two that are paid for.
They need two because driving around in the car sometimes is the only thing they
can do to calm their autistic child when he's having a rough patch.
He has been working 6 days a week for the last two years just so his family can have medical insurance.
They have defaulted on their mortgage and are still there two years later.
For free, as you call it.
All of their toys and fancy shit was sold when the youngest was diagnosed.


I think you lack a great deal of empathy and you can keep coming up
with loser stories who you think deserve to be homeless all day long if thats what makes you feel better.

Some of us are not talking stuff, we are talking about survival.
Go buy your big tv now while things are great for you .That may
not always be the case.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Dude

Real story.
My cousin married a very successful top mortgage director guy of some sort.
Six figure income, things were great ,they bought a home ,had two kids.

Several years later he loses his job. His youngest has severe autism and
requires 24/7 care (which requires my cousin to be a stay at home mom)
Now their oldest (12 years old) has been diagnosed with diabetes and
has to have daily insulin shots and medical testing to get her all balanced
enough to attend school.
They gave up their two car's which required payments for two that are paid for.
They need two because driving around in the car sometimes is the only thing they
can do to calm their autistic child when he's having a rough patch.
He has been working 6 days a week for the last two years just so his family can have medical insurance.
They have defaulted on their mortgage and are still there two years later.
For free, as you call it.
All of their toys and fancy shit was sold when the youngest was diagnosed.


I think you lack a great deal of empathy and you can keep coming up
with loser stories who you think deserve to be homeless all day long if thats what makes you feel better.

Some of us are not talking stuff, we are talking about survival.
Go buy your big tv now while things are great for you .That may
not always be the case.

These are the kinds of people that I really feel for, and who need to get a break.

What do you do when you have kids who are ill, who are disabled, who need you there 24/7? You do the best you can....and one of the biggest failures of our society (I think) is that there aren't enough supports available for people who find themselves in this kind of a situation.

I don't know what the answer is....but a better health care system, better childcare supports (especially for kids with health issues or special needs...who frequently can't access "regular" child care)...certainly couldn't hurt.

[Corkey]

Dear Mr. :

Thank you for taking the time to contact me about campaign finance reform. I appreciate hearing from you about this issue.

On January 21, 2010, the Supreme Court issued a ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission that overturns long-standing campaign finance laws and prohibits the government from banning political spending by corporations in candidate elections. The Court’s 5-4 decision held unconstitutional parts of the Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA) and the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 (BCRA), (sometimes referred to as the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law). It also overturned two precedents: Austin v. Michigan Chamber of Commerce, which upheld restrictions on corporate spending to support or oppose political candidates, and McConnell v. Federal Election Commission, which upheld the McCain-Feingold campaign finance law’s restriction on campaign spending by corporations and unions.

According to the Court’s majority, restricting corporations from directly participating in elections violates the right to free speech guaranteed under the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. By holding that corporations have the same constitutional right to free speech as individuals, this ruling represents a fundamental doctrinal shift. Although the full extent of the ruling’s impact is not yet known, this is a significant decision that many believe could reshape the political landscape by increasing the power of corporate special interests and the role of money in politics. Those with the deepest pockets, such as Wall Street, Big Oil and insurance companies, may have a greater influence in future elections.

President Obama, some Members of Congress and legal scholars have criticized the ruling as overreaching and setting a dangerous precedent. Others believe the ruling accurately interprets the First Amendment. I strongly believe that our democracy hinges on fair and transparent elections, and I will continue to advocate for limiting the influence of corporate special interests in politics.

In response to the Citizens United decision, S. 3295, the Democracy Is Strengthened by Casting Light On Spending in Elections (DISCLOSE) Act was introduced in the Senate on April 30, 2010. The DISCLOSE Act, of which I was a cosponsor, would place controls on the flood of special interest money in elections by requiring new disclaimers on all television advertisements that are funded by special interests, including an appearance by the CEO of the corporation running the ad. It would also prevent government contractors and corporate beneficiaries of TARP from spending money on elections. Moreover, the DISCLOSE Act would close loopholes and prevent foreign-controlled entities from spending unlimited amounts of money through their US-based subsidiaries and require all corporations and advocacy groups that make political expenditures to establish easy-to-track campaign accounts.

On both July 27 and September 23, a revised version of the bill, S. 3628, came before the full Senate for consideration. In both instances, I joined many of my colleagues in voting to proceed with consideration, but the measure did not garner the necessary 60 votes. In order for this legislation to be considered by the full Senate, it must be reintroduced in the 112th Congress, which began on January 5, 2011. As always, I appreciate your views, thoughts and concerns as they assist me in understanding what is important to the people of Pennsylvania.

Again, thank you for sharing your thoughts with me. Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future about this or any other matter of importance to you.

If you have access to the Internet, I encourage you to visit my web site, http://casey.senate.gov. I invite you to use this online office as a comprehensive resource to stay up-to-date on my work in Washington, request assistance from my office or share with me your thoughts on the issues that matter most to you and to Pennsylvania.

Sincerely,
Bob Casey
United States Senator

[atomiczombie]

http://www.occupytogether.org/

This is kind of a central hub for the various Occupy branches of the movement.

[atomiczombie]

This is an older article but still has some good stuff:

http://www.alternet.org/economy/1524...'_movement

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Dude

Let's say a tornado hit your neighborhood and yours was the only house
left standing.
Let's also say that you were surrounded by poor people who live in trailers.

Your town was hit hard and red cross cant get through the wreckage
for two weeks or so.
Do you hang a sign on your door that says I'm prepared sorry you are not?
Do you invite them in and school them on what you think they should have done,to be more like you?
Do you share your three weeks worth of food with these people or say sorry
that's for me? Hell ,you don't even know them so it ain't your problem they can find someone else to mooch from?
Seriously ,there are many things in life
that cant be prepared for, with money or planning alone.
Maybe you will find that out one day and your tune will change.

Go back and read my post. I wasn't talking about what I would do on a personal level , I am refering to what tax payers should fund as far as gov, programs what's an individual responsibilty what's gov. responsibility.
When you are done rereading my post, tell me where in my post I said we shouldn't help people of catastrophic events, also show me where it says I wouldn't help a neighbor in need. "Maybe I will find out one day and my tune will change"? Is that YOUR attempt to invite me in, and school me, on what you think I should have done to be more like you?
Yes somethings in life one can't be prepared with money or planning alone, somethings become more expensive than you could have ever planned for. But some can!!! I am saying when you can , you should. If you opt not to it's your choice, but don't look for people to bail you out when you make the wrong choice. It's not fair to people who opted to sacrifice new shoes, a new car, a plasma tv, pack their lunch not eat out everyday, to put money aside to pay for extra insurance. It's wrong to shrug your personal responsibility and expect others to pick up your slack, when your shrugging causes you dismay.

[JAGG]

[QUOTE=Julie;433282]True Story!

A friend of mine died yesterday. He was diagnosed with full blown AIDS 2 years ago. He lost his job because of illness, yet managed to find another one - less paying and without insurance. He could not go to the doctors for general care (just for his aids) and a year ago was diagnosed with Colon Cancer. He was at risk of losing his car - he could not make the car payments, which having a car might not seem like a lot - but it meant, he could not get his HIV treatment. No mass transit where he lived. We as a community raised a few thousand dollars to try and get him on his feet.

He died from a massive infection. He would NEVER have become so ill, had they found the colon cancer earlier, but he did not have insurance. He could not get help. It was too late for him. He died because of our country - our country killed him.



Julie,
I agree 100 percent. Our health care system sucks . The way we treat our elderly and disabled including terminal illnesses, is a crying shame!!!!!!!! It's pathetic that an elderly person has to decide whether to buy their meds or food for the month. We all know alot of the problems would be easy to fix. Another good reason for these protests.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Dude

Real story.
My cousin married a very successful top mortgage director guy of some sort.
Six figure income, things were great ,they bought a home ,had two kids.

Several years later he loses his job. His youngest has severe autism and
requires 24/7 care (which requires my cousin to be a stay at home mom)
Now their oldest (12 years old) has been diagnosed with diabetes and
has to have daily insulin shots and medical testing to get her all balanced
enough to attend school.
They gave up their two car's which required payments for two that are paid for.
They need two because driving around in the car sometimes is the only thing they
can do to calm their autistic child when he's having a rough patch.
He has been working 6 days a week for the last two years just so his family can have medical insurance.
They have defaulted on their mortgage and are still there two years later.
For free, as you call it.
All of their toys and fancy shit was sold when the youngest was diagnosed.


I think you lack a great deal of empathy and you can keep coming up
with loser stories who you think deserve to be homeless all day long if thats what makes you feel better.

Some of us are not talking stuff, we are talking about survival.
Go buy your big tv now while things are great for you .That may
not always be the case.

Again go back and read my post and tell me where I said this guy deserves to be homeless. You're ok with paying his mortgage when he isn't willing to sell a car? Sell some dirt bikes? He could have sold 3 of the 7 dirt bikes and paid his mortgage for a year. Sold the minivan and paid his mortgage for almost 2 years. He isn't willing to take personal responsibilty to honor his obligations , but I'm supposed to be okay funding a program to honor his obligations for him. Well I'm not okay with that. You want to say I lack empathy for that? Go ahead I will wear your false title like a badge of honor. I'm getting a little tired of your personal attacks and jabs and insults. Stick to the facts and your point of veiw on things. If you disagree, fine you disagree . I'm not going to allow you to disrespect my opinion with your personal assaults. Also this guys was not a loser in any way shape or form, he was a very nice guy and seemed like a great dad. He just has his priorities screwed up, and is financially irresponsible.

[Corkey]

I think the point is being missed. No, you aren't funding the programs for this particular guy, when in fact this particular guy abused the system. The programs are there for the people like Dude's friend, and Julie's friend, a me and any other person who is in true need. There will always be the few who abuse the system, but throwing out the baby with the bath water doesn't seem very empathetic now does it.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Jagg,

I just want to say that when my ex-wife and I got together I had 2 credit cards and a total of $300 debt between them. By the time we split up, between my 2 cards we were about $12,000 in debt. There are many reasons, part of which is that she wanted to spend spend spend and we argued about it, and I unfortunately gave in way too much because I hadn't learned to stand up for myself back then. She was also someone who would never back down from an argument, and had I not backed down our argument would just go on and on. I gave in because she wore me down. My bad.

Then she got laid off from her job in the mortgage dept at B of A in Concord, CA. That was in 2003. I was the only one working, and I made about $12-13 per hour. She went on unemployment, and our monthly income plummeted. I sold my Harley to pay bills. We had an apartment, a kid, and a car payment. We also were paying COBRA for my wife's healthcare since losing her job, which was 100s of dollars more per month. We ended up getting behind on our bills and paying for basic things like groceries with my credit cards. Her credit was so bad that she didn't have any credit cards. She refused to allow me to ask my parents for financial help. Well, I say allow because that was about fight that there was no way for me to win. She was verbally and emotionally abusive to me, and very controlling.

When I finally left her after years of taking this abuse, she decided she wasn't going to pay her half of my credit card debt. She said that would count for my child support. Because we had missed payments, my rate was 30%. Before I had been with my ex-wife, I had excellent credit and was responsible with my money. I hadn't anticipated that things would end up this way. I had mistakenly thought that she would get another job soon and we would climb out of this financial hole. Instead, she decided not to look for another job and just take some classes to gain some more skills. She stayed on unemployment for a year. It wasn't until the end of that year that I left her, because she couldn't get by w/o my income. We had a child. I wasn't comfortable leaving them w/o an income that would sustain their basic needs.

When I left my ex-wife, I was making $13/hr and couldn't afford to pay much more than the minimum payments, but I always paid a little more just to try to get it paid down. I had a small dive of an apartment and no car payments. I got by ok, but at the rate I was going, it would have taken me decades to pay it off. I was faithful with my payments. I was never late or missed any of them. I called my credit card companies asking them to lower my rates. B of A told me I had to make all my payments on time for 6 months and then they would decrease it. 6 months came and went and I was still being charged 29.99%. Same with my Citibank card. No matter how many payments I made on time, neither bank would lower my rates. My parents ended up paying off my cards after a few years, because they saw how ridiculous my situation was.

That is how a lot of people end up with piles of debt they have no way to pay back. Yes, you could say I am at fault because of the choices I made. However, I wasn't able to anticipate how it would all turn out. I was in a bad marriage to someone I shouldn't have been with. I didn't see all the red flags ahead of time, because I had grown up with years of abuse and wasn't able to see those red flags. I was naive about a lot of things. I learned a lot of difficult lessons. I guess that is part of growing up. I now have zero credit share redit card debt. I never use my cards under any circumstances. If I want something I save for it and if I can't save for it, then I don't need it. I am on disability so I am very poor.

People get into a lot of debt for a variety of reasons. I think it's unfair to assume that you know all the ins and outs of a situation just on the face of it. People are human and make mistakes. That doesn't mean that the system isn't stacked against them and inherently unfair. It is.

I totally understand your situation. I had certain things happen to me and had to start over from scratch twice in my life. Sorry that happened to you. It sucks but it builds character.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

What is this in reference to Jagg?

That reference was from an earlier post of Julie's. I was using my cell phone . It has voice to text, but it's too diffcult to copy and paste. Sorry for the confusion.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by JAGG

Go back and read my post. I wasn't talking about what I would do on a personal level , I am refering to what tax payers should fund as far as gov, programs what's an individual responsibilty what's gov. responsibility.
When you are done rereading my post, tell me where in my post I said we shouldn't help people of catastrophic events, also show me where it says I wouldn't help a neighbor in need. "Maybe I will find out one day and my tune will change"? Is that YOUR attempt to invite me in, and school me, on what you think I should have done to be more like you?
Yes somethings in life one can't be prepared with money or planning alone, somethings become more expensive than you could have ever planned for. But some can!!! I am saying when you can , you should. If you opt not to it's your choice, but don't look for people to bail you out when you make the wrong choice. It's not fair to people who opted to sacrifice new shoes, a new car, a plasma tv, pack their lunch not eat out everyday, to put money aside to pay for extra insurance. It's wrong to shrug your personal responsibility and expect others to pick up your slack, when your shrugging causes you dismay.

I know exactly what your post said. I thought maybe if I took it to a more personal level you would think about it all, with a more open mind.

If I had people calling me ignorant and lacking empathy I would try to be a bit more teachable.
So, no you and I are nothing alike. I'm cool with that.

[AtLast]

http://www.businessweek.com/news/201...ayor-says.html

I can't help but think back to what mayors and other politicians said in the 60's and 70's about demonstrations. It took them all awhile to understand that people were taking a stand on things that deeply effect their lives.

I have been thinking about how these deomstrations are not on college campuses but the financial centers and willbe much more disruptive. But, I don't see how the protestors can make their point any other way and finally be heard.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Julie

I am sorry if you feel misunderstood - I read your words a few times and this is how I understood them. It came off as a great lacking of empathy.

I do have a question though... How do you really know if someone is being lazy or as you say just stupidity? And how do you know if it is in fact their fault? Honestly - We can assume many things and by making such assumptions, people are hurt.

What constitutes poor choices? And who are we to judge, they are poor choices?

And why is it based on how you feel? Could your feelings be wrong, based on bias or wrong information?

I believe this is how we get in trouble in this society - we make life changing calls for people, based on our own emotions and logic - we can certainly be skewed.

Julie

Of course my feelings could be wrong. But I'm not someone who would shoot off my mouth unless I had facts and real life experience , and my experiences have caused me to render the conclusions that my feelings and opinions are based on. I in no way ever think I'm right and someone else is wrong. I'm simply stating the truth as I know it,what my experience has been and why my view may differ from yours. You know I love ya Julie. I know I pushed your buttons so I'm going to try to unpush them by explaining what I mean a little better. Because I know when there is a passionate debate people will tend to read into things and tempers flair . So here's a little better explaination. Keep in mind you may not agree with me. There is a hurricane coming been getting reports 2 weeks solid. Everyone is told to evacuate. But instead of doing the right thing, some guy decides I'm not going to do the right thing, even though I'm taking a risk and I know what could happen, I'm gonna stick it out take my chances. The worst occurs. Now he has had warning after warning, 3 days of mandatory evacuations. Even had sheriffs going door to door in case someone was home bound. He still stayed. Now he is in a bad mess, he is forced to the roof top because the house is completely flooded. He is watching home after home swept away and he knows he screwed up. So he calls 911. Now the police the fireman and paramedics have to risk their lives , in white cap rapids, of rancid water full of virus's , bacteria dead animals you name it , to save this guy. Should the tax payers have to foot the bill for the rescue? No way!!! He should. Am I saying he shouldn't be rescued. Hell no I'm not saying that. Did I say he deserves to die , hell no didn't say that either. What I'm saying is he should have to pay for his poor choice, not us. And if a fireman or policeman dies trying to save him, he should be charged with involuntary manslaughter on top of paying for the cost of the rescue service. It's not fair to have to pay for someone else because they made poor choices. I don't agree with it. If that makes me lack empathy so be it. What I can't for the life of me understand is why people think we should. Why people think no one should have to take responsibilty for their actions boggles my mind. You don't think that is a good definition of stupitidy, staying even though you knew you should leave? I do .That was a poor choice . you make call me judgemental I call it a fact. That was plain old fashion stupid, and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Now let me guess what's gong happen. Someone is going to read this post. Get pissed and come up with some crazy scenerio that has nothing to do with what I am talking about then try to accuse me of meaning something I never even came close to thinking . Like this , well JAGG what if a steel mill blows up and 50 houses catch on fire, or what if a train derails and spews toxic liquid into a neighborhood, or a gas line explodes and burns up a nursing home, are you going make those people pay to be rescued too. Lets hope your house never catches on fire you never need to be rescued. It's clear you have never had any thing bad ever happen to you and you don't know what it's like to have your arms and legs cut off and need a paramedic. My 3rd cousin didnt tie his shoes one day and tripped on his lace fell down the steps broke his hip had to call a Paramedic are you saying that's his fault and he has to pay for his bad choice?????? I guess you would just leave him there to die. Because he didn't make the same choice you would have, he is just plain old fashion stupid and deserves to die. I think you're the stupid one.

[Corkey]

What if JAGG, he were 80 years old and didn't have a car and couldn't find anyone to take him out of harms way. Sound familiar? Katrina anyone? Not everyone has a choice as you put it, and some choices are not really a choice at all.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I think the point is being missed. No, you aren't funding the programs for this particular guy, when in fact this particular guy abused the system. The programs are there for the people like Dude's friend, and Julie's friend, a me and any other person who is in true need. There will always be the few who abuse the system, but throwing out the baby with the bath water doesn't seem very empathetic now does it.

I have no problem under the sun funding a program for people in need. People who truely are ill or penny less by no fault of their own. I'd give my last penny to help someone. Gladly.
I wouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water. But you could save money on diapers that way.

[JAGG]

:seeingstar s:

Originally Posted by Corkey

What if JAGG, he were 80 years old and didn't have a car and couldn't find anyone to take him out of harms way. Sound familiar? Katrina anyone? Not everyone has a choice as you put it, and some choices are not really a choice at all.

:seeingstar s::seeingst ars: