Men with boobs.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I think there is a created hatred between female-id butches and masculine-id butches. I'm not sure who or how or why it got created, but it is a virus in our community.

This almost implies that it just sort of happened like a disease. It denies any kind of gender hierarchy and the fact that sexism is behind it. WHY is there some discord in the first place? Because there has been a history -- not too long and only in some communities, but quite REAL -- of devaluing women-identified butches. When women identified butches started objecting and even organizing a little bit, they were accused of inserting HATE into the dialogue. That's classic privilege at work.

Originally Posted by Arwen

How can one person's personal choice of id be affected by someone's else's?

. . .

I just wonder if we will ever have a day, an hour, a nanosecond where my choice of id doesn't interfere with your(generic) choice of id.

If I can state that I don't id as a (fill in the blank), without pissing off/offending/hurting all those who do id as a (fill in the same blank).

The fact IS that woman-ID'd butches were erased in some communities, and their speaking up seems to bother some people. You seem to want to understand their speaking up about this erasure as if it were an objection to how others ID. It is not that. And it's offensive to frame it that way. It's not an attack. It's not an expression of hatred. Calling it that is such a classic defense that people who do not want a group to speak about their lives and their truths use.

My sense is that most woman-identified butches want to be respected, to not be called by masculine pronouns, and to not have certain assumptions placed on them. Somehow that gets experienced as a rebuke to how others ID. It is not.

Originally Posted by Arwen

Does anyone think we can ever get there? Where we don't even need discussions about female-id vs butch-id? Where it just doesn't freaking matter?

When the problem is solved, yes, it will go away. Not until then. i don't think women-identified butches are going to volunteer for erasure just so some people will feel better. (i note your Freudian slip -- female-id vs. butch-id).

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

This almost implies that it just sort of happened like a disease. It denies any kind of gender hierarchy and the fact that sexism is behind it. WHY is there some discord in the first place? Because there has been a history -- not too long and only in some communities, but quite REAL -- of devaluing women-identified butches. When women identified butches started objecting and even organizing a little bit, they were accused of inserting HATE into the dialogue. That's classic privilege at work.

This feels like the chicken and the egg with me...was there was no discord before the male-identified butches took it upon themselves to devalue the female-identified butches? Or are you saying society in general devalued female-identified butches and then it was basically 'on'. I wasn't around then and, though I know some of my community's history, I could definitely learn more.

I understand what Arwen was saying, I think, and I also feel as if there's a line drawn in the sand. No, we don't want anyone to address 'us' as 'them'. It's one thing to want to be called what I id as (and I think that most of us do try to do our best to respect our peers and address them as they'd like to be seen) and another to automatically look to the other party in a less than respectful way because someone slipped up and called us the wrong pronoun or label or whatever it was in that moment.

There seems, to me, to be less of "Hey, that's not how I id. Please call me this next time, okay?" and more of "Ewwww! That's not how I id! Don't call me THAT!" Whether it comes from male-identified butches or female-identified butches, it's not a nice thing. There's more tolerance for straight people looking in than those within our own circle. That feels like we're tearing our own community apart and for what? To say "I'm right!" basically. Why can't we all be right (for ourselves) and let everyone else, be it female-identified or male-identified or kiwi-identified or any other number of identities...why can't we just accept one another? It's like we're eroded our community from the inside out....like a virus.

The fact IS that woman-ID'd butches were erased in some communities, and their speaking up seems to bother some people. You seem to want to understand their speaking up about this erasure as if it were an objection to how others ID. It is not that. And it's offensive to frame it that way. It's not an attack. It's not an expression of hatred. Calling it that is such a classic defense that people who do not want a group to speak about their lives and their truths use.

My sense is that most woman-identified butches want to be respected, to not be called by masculine pronouns, and to not have certain assumptions placed on them. Somehow that gets experienced as a rebuke to how others ID. It is not.

I read the last couple of paragraphs and I'm sure that my first response is what may seem like a perfect example of what you speak of. Except it's not.

Arwen spoke of not letting how one person identifies affecting her identity and that is true for all of us. Your identity shouldn't affect mine and vise versa, but somehow....especially with female and male-identified butches, this seems to me to play out differently. Almost as if one can't exist without the other but there's still that immediate rejection of the other. I'm not finding the right words I fear to express my thoughts as well as they could (like Arwen was, I'm a bit tired).

How does one say THIS is how I identify without it sounding like AND YOU SHOULD TOO or giving off the feeling that one person's chosen id is better than another's?

Someone...bete?...said that calling her partner he creates invisibility for her and I see that. I've fought against it and, at other times, have hidden behind it when it felt safer to do so. That's a privilege that many don't have and I am aware of it and have been grateful and hateful of it too.

I tend to default to male pronouns as well. I know more male-identified or masculine preferring butches than female-identified butches in my own bubble. However, I respect that butch does not equal he and adjust the way I address someone if I know their identity and preference BUT in the case where I'm speaking of someone and they are not there to ask and no one else knows their preference I'll either say he (that's my default showing) or their screen name. When I get the chance to ask them personally, I will.

I'm not perfect by any standards (defaulting to he OR she is wrong, imo) but why can't there be less finger wagging and talking down to and more person to person conversing?

I'm asking this of you, Martina, not only because some of your post sparked something in me but because I feel that you may have an answer that would help me to understand better. I'm not coming from an argumentative place and I hope that that is not how I read. I'm genuinely curious.

[BullDog]

Personally all the female-identified, woman-identified, etc jargon does not at all reflect ME. No offense intended to those who find personal meaning in those terms.

I have yet to hear one single butch ever say they are engaged in some sort of war.

I don't identify as a woman- I AM a woman. I live my life as a woman, as a masculine woman, as a Butch. It's not something I "identify with." I live it.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Gemme

How does one say THIS is how I identify without it sounding like AND YOU SHOULD TOO or giving off the feeling that one person's chosen id is better than another's?

i think it's possible. i think a lot of people successfully do this. The problems come when you ASSUME others are or should be like you are.

Originally Posted by Gemme

I'm not perfect by any standards (defaulting to he OR she is wrong, imo) but why can't there be less finger wagging and talking down to and more person to person conversing?

It's not just an individual issue. It has social meaning when we default to "he." It defines the norm. Defining the norm as "he" is, for one thing, not statistically accurate. BY FAR, there are more butches who use female pronouns. It also is coercive in the context of right now -- our time, our place. It has cultural meaning.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Martina

This almost implies that it just sort of happened like a disease. It denies any kind of gender hierarchy and the fact that sexism is behind it. WHY is there some discord in the first place? Because there has been a history -- not too long and only in some communities, but quite REAL -- of devaluing women-identified butches. When women identified butches started objecting and even organizing a little bit, they were accused of inserting HATE into the dialogue. That's classic privilege at work.

Most certainly is. And one excusing their laziness about using female pronouns takes the cake with exercising privilege. Arwen, I have always thought very highly of you and actually understand part of your response. But, This statement was so dismissive, I could not believe it came from you at all.

What would a male-identified or TG butch think and feel if i just said, Oh, sorry, its just too damn difficult to respect part of who you are... don't take it personally.

The fact IS that woman-ID'd butches were erased in some communities, and their speaking up seems to bother some people. You seem to want to understand their speaking up about this erasure as if it were an objection to how others ID. It is not that. And it's offensive to frame it that way. It's not an attack. It's not an expression of hatred. Calling it that is such a classic defense that people who do not want a group to speak about their lives and their truths use.

No, our speaking up has not one damn thing to do with objecting to how other's ID. I get really tired of this assumption and I don't believe that male-IDed/transmen are taking pot shots at my identity when they speak their personal truth. Again, this attitude is from a place of privilege.

My sense is that most woman-identified butches want to be respected, to not be called by masculine pronouns, and to not have certain assumptions placed on them. Somehow that gets experienced as a rebuke to how others ID. It is not.

You got it!



When the problem is solved, yes, it will go away. Not until then. i don't think women-identified butches are going to volunteer for erasure just so some people will feel better. (i note your Freudian slip -- female-id vs. butch-id).

True... on both counts. And we are not.

Something that comes up for me time and again is that I can have this conversation with male-identified butches and transmen outside of a B-F website without these kinds of statements and assumptions. In fact, I find alot of sincere understanding between us all more often than not. I get pissed when I hear blanket statements about hatred among us. There has been a lot of work done among us. And I won't stand for that to be erased either.

[Nat]

This community is really interesting because it bridges some real gaps in society. Each of us has had real-world lived experiences that vary greatly from the cisgender hetero "norm." *In some cases, those experiences vary even more greatly from those of others' in our community. *

On each of our individual paths, we have learned things of value at least to ourselves and hopefully, if shared, to others as well. *I think there are issues with "hearing" each other over the noise, walls and distances created by our own experiences, knowledge, education, age/generation, affinities, alliances, communities, values, etc. *

Complicating these divisions is the fact that many people when defining their own identity have incorporated into that identity a devaluation of the things they are not. *I think this is part of the trap of living as an "other" - not only is there a tendency to self-oppress, but there is a tendency to oppress other "others" in an attempt to feel validated.

I think exposure to this community does a great job of helping people reconstruct/clarify their identities in ways that do not subconsciously negate the identities of others. *When I run into people in the real world who do not participate in this sort of online interaction or have significant community exposure, there is a big difference in the level of critical thinking that goes on regarding gender, identity, sexuality and community. *Even when it's frustrating, the conversations here and in communities like this are ultimately productive and meaningful.

I have seen over time people of many different orientations and gender identities feel negated, invisibilized, put down, disrespected, unaccepted and unheard. I have felt all of those things myself as I have struggled with my own gender identity and really questioned whether I have a place here at all. *("here" = not "here" at this site, but within the online community which comprised many of the same people as this site currently comprises). *When I came out of the closet, I thought that was going to be my biggest, most freeing moment. *I came running into the arms of a community that I somehow imagined was a sort of wonderland of acceptance. *It's not. *

When I "came out" about feeling like a guy on the inside, well. *It was messy. *I was in a bad place. *I was in a sort of crisis with my gender. *Where I felt like coming out would mean finally being accepted and possibly loved for who I was, I realized at that point - the only person likely to accept me entirely for who I am - is gonna be me. *The only person capable of respecting where I'm coming from without trying to negate it - is gonna be me. *What made that more true was the fact that in an attempt to express what was going on with me, I assumed that other people's reactions, interpretations, world views, opinions, levels of discomfort were intentionally negating, invisiblizing, cruel and "wrong." I didn't feel accepted or respected, and I was neither accepting nor respectful of those who didn't "hear" me. *I felt judged - I judged. *As they say, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Then there have been other times - many many other times, when the shoe has been on the other foot. *I have been the one unable to hear, understand others within this community. *Sometimes it's because I personally feel discounted, but often it's just that there are so many gaps we are trying to cross at once - just in order to communicate about some of these issues. *I have learned over time that when I can't hear clearly and if the person or people I'm trying to "hear" are obviously not intending to be malicious, that it's worth keeping my ears open and gleaning what I can. *There are so many reasons we have gaps/noise/walls that keep us from hearing each other clearly - it may take many years to hear each other better.

I think goodwill and a willingness to listen and accept where people are coming from are really essential to the vitality of a community like ours. We are not always going to *get* each other, and I think that's a truth which doesn't necessarily have to tear us apart or lead to deep wounds or feelings of exclusion.

All this to say, my own limitations with this topic are most likely multiple. *I am a feminist who has often felt bullied by feminism. *I see Cynthia Nixon being held up as an example of something atrociously unfeminist and my first reaction is to defend her. *Feminism is great, but to me it feels like this steamroller at times and I personally just really struggle with the way in which it seems to negate the individual lived experience. *So I get stuck right there. *And I can't hear Heart. *I can't hear exactly what she's saying though I know what's sticking in my craw is not even what she's trying to say.

I know from experience that it's worth continuing to listen as long as she's willing to persist, because Heart will at times say things that are revelatory (to me) and worth the struggle it takes to bridge the gaps. *But there's a lot of personal noise for me on this topic and I know it's affecting my ability to "hear" clearly.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Nat

This community is really interesting because it bridges some real gaps in society. Each of us has had real-world lived experiences that vary greatly from the cisgender hetero "norm." *In some cases, those experiences vary even more greatly from those of others' in our community. *

On each of our individual paths, we have learned things of value at least to ourselves and hopefully, if shared, to others as well. *I think there are issues with "hearing" each other over the noise, walls and distances created by our own experiences, knowledge, education, age/generation, affinities, alliances, communities, values, etc. *

Complicating these divisions is the fact that many people when defining their own identity have incorporated into that identity a devaluation of the things they are not. *I think this is part of the trap of living as an "other" - not only is there a tendency to self-oppress, but there is a tendency to oppress other "others" in an attempt to feel validated.

I think exposure to this community does a great job of helping people reconstruct/clarify their identities in ways that do not subconsciously negate the identities of others. *When I run into people in the real world who do not participate in this sort of online interaction or have significant community exposure, there is a big difference in the level of critical thinking that goes on regarding gender, identity, sexuality and community. *Even when it's frustrating, the conversations here and in communities like this are ultimately productive and meaningful.

I have seen over time people of many different orientations and gender identities feel negated, invisibilized, put down, disrespected, unaccepted and unheard. I have felt all of those things myself as I have struggled with my own gender identity and really questioned whether I have a place here at all. *("here" = not "here" at this site, but within the online community which comprised many of the same people as this site currently comprises). *When I came out of the closet, I thought that was going to be my biggest, most freeing moment. *I came running into the arms of a community that I somehow imagined was a sort of wonderland of acceptance. *It's not. *

When I "came out" about feeling like a guy on the inside, well. *It was messy. *I was in a bad place. *I was in a sort of crisis with my gender. *Where I felt like coming out would mean finally being accepted and possibly loved for who I was, I realized at that point - the only person likely to accept me entirely for who I am - is gonna be me. *The only person capable of respecting where I'm coming from without trying to negate it - is gonna be me. *What made that more true was the fact that in an attempt to express what was going on with me, I assumed that other people's reactions, interpretations, world views, opinions, levels of discomfort were intentionally negating, invisiblizing, cruel and "wrong." I didn't feel accepted or respected, and I was neither accepting nor respectful of those who didn't "hear" me. *I felt judged - I judged. *As they say, "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Then there have been other times - many many other times, when the shoe has been on the other foot. *I have been the one unable to hear, understand others within this community. *Sometimes it's because I personally feel discounted, but often it's just that there are so many gaps we are trying to cross at once - just in order to communicate about some of these issues. *I have learned over time that when I can't hear clearly and if the person or people I'm trying to "hear" are obviously not intending to be malicious, that it's worth keeping my ears open and gleaning what I can. *There are so many reasons we have gaps/noise/walls that keep us from hearing each other clearly - it may take many years to hear each other better.

I think goodwill and a willingness to listen and accept where people are coming from are really essential to the vitality of a community like ours. We are not always going to *get* each other, and I think that's a truth which doesn't necessarily have to tear us apart or lead to deep wounds or feelings of exclusion.

All this to say, my own limitations with this topic are most likely multiple. *I am a feminist who has often felt bullied by feminism. *I see Cynthia Nixon being held up as an example of something atrociously unfeminist and my first reaction is to defend her. *Feminism is great, but to me it feels like this steamroller at times and I personally just really struggle with the way in which it seems to negate the individual lived experience. *So I get stuck right there. *And I can't hear Heart. *I can't hear exactly what she's saying though I know what's sticking in my craw is not even what she's trying to say.

I know from experience that it's worth continuing to listen as long as she's willing to persist, because Heart will at times say things that are revelatory (to me) and worth the struggle it takes to bridge the gaps. *But there's a lot of personal noise for me on this topic and I know it's affecting my ability to "hear" clearly.

I so appreciate this post! So honest and real. Touches so many things I have felt within the context of this community. Just isn't easy stuff goin' on! Thank you. I am doing a personal inventory after reading this, I sometimes need a tune-up when a thread becomes upsetting to me or I just feel alienated among my people. Yup, bridging those gaps is important!

[apretty]

there was a time that, though i still asked prior, i defaulted to 'he' and it was during this time (about 6 years ago) that female butches were becoming increasingly marginalized... (and this doesn't mean that i am apologizing in any way in my 'role' in 'marginalizing' because that's not where i'm going with this. --whole different thread.)

does anyone besides me sense the subversiveness (which i love, truth be told) in claiming/re-claiming the butch in female whether it be in identity and/or presentation?

just throwing this question out there, it's something that wanders around in my thoughts whenever space and pronouns and space and gender are thrown in the mix.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by apretty

there was a time that, though i still asked prior, i defaulted to 'he' and it was during this time (about 6 years ago) that female butches were becoming increasingly marginalized... (and this doesn't mean that i am apologizing in any way in my 'role' in 'marginalizing' because that's not where i'm going with this. --whole different thread.)

does anyone besides me sense the subversiveness (which i love, truth be told) in claiming/re-claiming the butch in female whether it be in identity and/or presentation?

just throwing this question out there, it's something that wanders around in my thoughts whenever space and pronouns and space and gender are thrown in the mix.

I love the subversiveness too. For more reasons that I can count.

[Random]

Originally Posted by apretty

there was a time that, though i still asked prior, i defaulted to 'he' and it was during this time (about 6 years ago) that female butches were becoming increasingly marginalized... (and this doesn't mean that i am apologizing in any way in my 'role' in 'marginalizing' because that's not where i'm going with this. --whole different thread.)

does anyone besides me sense the subversiveness (which i love, truth be told) in claiming/re-claiming the butch in female whether it be in identity and/or presentation?

just throwing this question out there, it's something that wanders around in my thoughts whenever space and pronouns and space and gender are thrown in the mix.

Sometimes I think it's what every the butches you hold close in your heart ID as that becomes an *auto ID* in your head...

I noticed that about myself over the years... If the majority of butches/masculine women are some where on the path in transition then my inside default for the unknown is *He* If the majority of butches/masculine women in my life are female id'd then my inside default for the unknown is *She*