Men with boobs.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

...........There seems to be an unspoken understanding that a butch should 'evolve' into something...more specific. And that ideally that "evolution" should include moving towards a more masculine identity, because that is better than just butch. I looked up evolution, and while I know some of you loathe definitions in posts I think this is important.

..............My inclusion of the definition is to point out that I think often the word "evolve" is assumed to mean 'changed into something better', when all it really signifies is change into something else.........

This is key to something that's been on my mind a lot lately and I'm going to kind of jump off it...

There are places, milestones in life we as people change and to grow and I've been going though one of those points.

In B-F context it's been coming out sideways as something of a fucking roller coaster really of hating labels, everything feeling itchy and trying to get out from under that feeling. But what I'd like to get at is about 6 weeks ago I took a bit of a self imposed hiatus, and I kind of woke up. Because in that time ended up looking at what was making me itchy about certain things/labels/words and my experiences that shaped those discomforts... instead of looking at how I could get around or avoid them which is what I had been doing.

I agree with you Darth, 100%. In our online community changes/movement (physical or other) along the gender lines is generally celebrated, as long as it's linear- toward male... and the hierarchy works it's way up hand in hand with this. I don't think it's expected for butches to move along that line but that that's the direction, to put it lightly, that's more valued... I don't think that's hard for anyone to see.

But the point... in that hiatus I changed my pronoun to she, and my appearance also changed somewhat... to more of a female appearance- and that doesn't equate to being feminine (again female doesn't mean feminine, two-whole-different-words). And I didn't change internally persay, but more let go of some bullshit I'd been holding on myself... shit I'd let sink it without realizing it.

And with all that I'm aware of the all the crap stuff enough and "unwritten laws" that for about a week I seriously questioned my remaining in the community, and NOT because my butch-ness changed, it didn't and I don't think it could, stone hasn't changed either, I suppose that could but I don't see it. I'm simply re-claiming being female, myself, and with it being female in butch and what that means for myself.

And make no mistake I can handle my own, always have. But it's more a question of with this I just wondered at what point does it push past the point of being worth the bull and the battle.

But part of being able to embrace this change in myself and grow with it is not giving a fuck about what anyone "thinks", we all grow in our own ways, and it's not always linear... but what's right for us. To me that's the most important thing to celebrate... and not which "direction" you went. I know lot of people probably aren't going to get it, but they don't need to except that my butch-ness doesn't depend one iota on how "male" I am or a pronoun, it never has.

You know I've read this a few times and I'm not even sure I got across what I intended... but like I said it's just some shit that's been weighing on my mind a hell of lot lately.

Peace,
Metropolis

[Medusa]

Great post, Met! And as usual, you have me doing some further thinking on the existence of and effects of the continuum.

I'll have to start another thread because I don't want to derail this one but I see a really similar happening in the Femme community with "the continuum" and the values places on the "hyper" Feminine.

We have a lot of "unwritten laws" in the Femme community as well, and although it might be wildly unpopular to suggest this, I am wondering if we don't as Femmes "celebrate" milestones that drive us toward the more homogenous version of "Femme" or "Woman" in much the same way that happens for the Butch community.

Im thinking particularly of Femmes who are elevated to a more "legitimate" or more "acceptable" status when they become partnered. (That whole "a single Femme is a dangerous Femme" thinking) or Femmes who are celebrated when they partner with a Transman.

I won't derail this thread any further with these thoughts but just wanted to say that I think these parallels tell at least me personally that there is something going on with the motion and direction that the Femme and Butch communities are pushed in with the created hierarchies.

I think there is more to it than trying to homogenize "Femme" or "Butch" into a heterosexual standard. It's almost like this need to be able to recognize each other as a "thing" or "label" becomes more important than recognizing the dynamic person. I'm not quite sure what it is yet but I'm thinking on it.

[BullDog]

Dylan you raise an excellent point. No my pronoun is not a preference. I didn't sit down one day to decide whether I preferred She or He. I've always been a She.

I've heard a couple explanations on why He became the default over on the Dash site. One of the owners said once that back in the Internet dark ages when they were communicating primarily via email lists there were no avatars, pics, etc to tell people apart so they used He for butches. I've also heard that in chat the default was He or Hy for butches to tell them apart from femmes and that's how we got to where we are now.

One thing I think is important to note is that these explanations really don't have anything to do with there being an increased influx of male identified butches. It is supposedly to tell butches apart from femmes, not to distinguish between different types of butches. I often hear when butch women are speaking up that we are afraid of becoming extinct. That really gives me a good laugh. Anyway...

First of all, I'm not sure why the hell you need to group people or tell them apart that way. If a person's gender is pertinent to the discussion, I'm sure they will let you know. When you are in chat talking back and forth does it really matter if the person is butch or femme? Is it an insult for a butch to be mistaken for a femme in chat? If so, why? Can't you ask if you really need to know?

If you are talking in third person about someone and for some reason you need to let your friend know who you are talking about is butch, you can say she's a butch or he's a butch.

I seriously don't get the whole "we need to tell the butches apart from the femmes" argument for using He. I thought we were queer/lesbian, homosexuals (same sex). What am I missing?

The other explanation I have heard is what it was a way to honor a butch's masculinity. Hah well it sure as hell doesn't honor mine. I think though this starts to get to the heart of the matter. People have a hard time thinking about masculinity in female terms. It is basically considered less disrespectful to call a butch He by mistake that goes by She, than to call a male identified butch She by mistake- which is like the worst crime in the world.

Masculinity is still closely associated with male. People have a hard time knowing how to recognize and refer to female masculinity that isn't associated with or compared with male. As many of us have said, this goes well beyond pronouns. It is not just pronouns which have become defaulted to male. Male has in many ways become the standard by which butches are measured.

Finally, butches like Toughy, myself and others have been speaking up for around 10 years. If for some reason it started out as a default with no ill intent, that's one thing. But why for years and years and years afterwards was there so much resistance to change after butches have been speaking up? Why is there still resistance by some?

I really think there is plenty of evidence to show that most butches are females and consider themselves to be females and many consider themselves to be women. Why the hell wouldn't that be the case? Most butches ARE females. We were born that way. Butch femme communities are comprised of female born people and trans people. If there were going to be any defaults, logically speaking it would be female pronouns and identities.

Those who identify as male should be respected and called by the proper pronouns. But they are not the majority and not the default. They never have been.

[Beau]

The "ideal" for a butch is "evolving" to a more "masculine identity" -- what. the. fuck?

The parts of me that are masculine are INNATE, biological, physiological aspects of my physical, psychological, and emotional self. They are not some manufactured or manipulated elements to produce "male".

I am evolved as a butch. Any further evolution is in terms of my own comfort level in dealing with an ignorant world that doesn't understand who or what I am.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Beau

The "ideal" for a butch is "evolving" to a more "masculine identity" -- what. the. fuck?

The parts of me that are masculine are INNATE, biological, physiological aspects of my physical, psychological, and emotional self. They are not some manufactured or manipulated elements to produce "male".

I am evolved as a butch. Any further evolution is in terms of my own comfort level in dealing with an ignorant world that doesn't understand who or what I am.

Yes, WTF??

I am evolved as a human being. And if being butch were to mean finishing at male, I am happy to turn in my butch card and exit the B-F community and dynamic because this is just what I signed-up for. For those that a personal journey in which female-masculinity does not fit, I give my support. But this is not the default road for all butches. We are all ever changing, and have to adapt to this world and relationships.

I not only hear what someone else asks for in stating what pronoun the prefer, but, I want to offer this kind of courtesy. I want the same in return. Yes, some of this can be simply boiled down to common courtesy. Yes, that ignorant world... which sometimes includes this very community.

If the pronoun discission was really just about terms, I don't think we would have these debates at all. It goes much deeper and is related to some core structures and values we all have a stake in. As Heart pointed out, a deeply rooted devaluation of female and the feminine exists here. It goes beyond butch to femmes as well. These issues affect us all.

I don't want any kind of default pronoun just like I don't want stereotypes and hierarchies of both butches and femmes. High, low, soft, hard.... etc.... None of us are pronouns.

I am so glad to see you posting, Beau!

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Dylan you raise an excellent point. No my pronoun is not a preference. I didn't sit down one day to decide whether I preferred She or He. I've always been a She.

I've heard a couple explanations on why He became the default over on the Dash site. One of the owners said once that back in the Internet dark ages when they were communicating primarily via email lists there were no avatars, pics, etc to tell people apart so they used He for butches. I've also heard that in chat the default was He or Hy for butches to tell them apart from femmes and that's how we got to where we are now.

One thing I think is important to note is that these explanations really don't have anything to do with there being an increased influx of male identified butches. It is supposedly to tell butches apart from femmes, not to distinguish between different types of butches. I often hear when butch women are speaking up that we are afraid of becoming extinct. That really gives me a good laugh. Anyway...

First of all, I'm not sure why the hell you need to group people or tell them apart that way. If a person's gender is pertinent to the discussion, I'm sure they will let you know. When you are in chat talking back and forth does it really matter if the person is butch or femme? Is it an insult for a butch to be mistaken for a femme in chat? If so, why? Can't you ask if you really need to know?

If you are talking in third person about someone and for some reason you need to let your friend know who you are talking about is butch, you can say she's a butch or he's a butch.

I seriously don't get the whole "we need to tell the butches apart from the femmes" argument for using He. I thought we were queer/lesbian, homosexuals (same sex). What am I missing?

The other explanation I have heard is what it was a way to honor a butch's masculinity. Hah well it sure as hell doesn't honor mine. I think though this starts to get to the heart of the matter. People have a hard time thinking about masculinity in female terms. It is basically considered less disrespectful to call a butch He by mistake that goes by She, than to call a male identified butch She by mistake- which is like the worst crime in the world.

Masculinity is still closely associated with male. People have a hard time knowing how to recognize and refer to female masculinity that isn't associated with or compared with male. As many of us have said, this goes well beyond pronouns. It is not just pronouns which have become defaulted to male. Male has in many ways become the standard by which butches are measured.

Finally, butches like Toughy, myself and others have been speaking up for around 10 years. If for some reason it started out as a default with no ill intent, that's one thing. But why for years and years and years afterwards was there so much resistance to change after butches have been speaking up? Why is there still resistance by some?

I really think there is plenty of evidence to show that most butches are females and consider themselves to be females and many consider themselves to be women. Why the hell wouldn't that be the case? Most butches ARE females. We were born that way. Butch femme communities are comprised of female born people and trans people. If there were going to be any defaults, logically speaking it would be female pronouns and identities.

Those who identify as male should be respected and called by the proper pronouns. But they are not the majority and not the default. They never have been.

I agree with you to a point.

Honestly, I think since the b-f/queer community has grown and does include male ID'd butches, transmen, transwomen, third-gendered folks, two-spirit folks, etc, and since this particular site isn't ONLY butch-femme, but strives to include ALL queer people...

I personally think the default pronoun should be zie/per/sie or one of the other neutral pronouns (and I mean that for femmes too). I mean, if we're striving to be an all-inclusive community, then we *should* be prepared to be more 'welcoming' of ALL queers, no? If we're going to sit and point fingers at, say, Cynthia Nixon for not being 'aware' of 'people in her community'...then, I think we, as a community *should* be more 'aware' also.

We're not a very welcoming community to A LOT of people in the transgendered/transsexed arenas...not as long as we're 'forcing' (used loosely) to pick a pronoun (out of two), not as long as we're *choosing* pronouns for other people, not as long as we're 'whatevering' people's pronouns, etc

I mean, I get it if someone is new to this site, and they default to a 'she' pronoun. What I don't get is people who have interacted here for years who still just blow it off. I mean, seriously, HOW does One interact with the same people for years and years...HOW does One MEET some of those people in person, share drinks, share whatnots and STILL screw up something like a pronoun? I mean, seriously, if you (general) screw up a co-worker's pronoun, I'll bet you only do it once...but here, it's just blown off?

And here's another thing I don't get...I'm on a number of websites. Some of them are primarily straight websites, some of them are queer websites, some of them are a mix. It's all sorts of people. I don't have to 'make a list' or 'keep a diary' to keep people's pronouns straight. It's amazing how many people I can hang out with in a public setting and not screw up a pronoun...and if I'm not sure, there's ways to navigate around it, or (holy shit) just ask. So, I'm not understanding why people's brains seem to fly out the window when they log into this site.


Dylan

[BullDog]

Well I don't think there should be a default pronoun. You make another good point Dylan. Many of us are parts of other online communities or social sites where there are a mixture of people. No one is wringing their hands over on Facebook or a gardening site because they can't remember everyone's pronouns.

[Gayla]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Well I don't think there should be a default pronoun. You make another good point Dylan. Many of us are parts of other online communities or social sites where there are a mixture of people. No one is wringing their hands over on Facebook or a gardening site because they can't remember everyone's pronouns.

I will admit that for a brief moment, since I am so often known as hy/he in the b-f community, I had some hesitation about setting my gender as "female" on Facebook.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I agree with you to a point.

Honestly, I think since the b-f/queer community has grown and does include male ID'd butches, transmen, transwomen, third-gendered folks, two-spirit folks, etc, and since this particular site isn't ONLY butch-femme, but strives to include ALL queer people...

I personally think the default pronoun should be zie/per/sie or one of the other neutral pronouns (and I mean that for femmes too). I mean, if we're striving to be an all-inclusive community, then we *should* be prepared to be more 'welcoming' of ALL queers, no? If we're going to sit and point fingers at, say, Cynthia Nixon for not being 'aware' of 'people in her community'...then, I think we, as a community *should* be more 'aware' also.

We're not a very welcoming community to A LOT of people in the transgendered/transsexed arenas...not as long as we're 'forcing' (used loosely) to pick a pronoun (out of two), not as long as we're *choosing* pronouns for other people, not as long as we're 'whatevering' people's pronouns, etc

I mean, I get it if someone is new to this site, and they default to a 'she' pronoun. What I don't get is people who have interacted here for years who still just blow it off. I mean, seriously, HOW does One interact with the same people for years and years...HOW does One MEET some of those people in person, share drinks, share whatnots and STILL screw up something like a pronoun? I mean, seriously, if you (general) screw up a co-worker's pronoun, I'll bet you only do it once...but here, it's just blown off?

And here's another thing I don't get...I'm on a number of websites. Some of them are primarily straight websites, some of them are queer websites, some of them are a mix. It's all sorts of people. I don't have to 'make a list' or 'keep a diary' to keep people's pronouns straight. It's amazing how many people I can hang out with in a public setting and not screw up a pronoun...and if I'm not sure, there's ways to navigate around it, or (holy shit) just ask. So, I'm not understanding why people's brains seem to fly out the window when they log into this site.


Dylan

I hear you're point and agree with much of it... but that said I don't think there should be any "default".

No doubt they're would be quite a few peeps who would rather not be called those pronouns either. I'm not gender neutral, and I really wouldn't be fond of peeps using pronouns like zie/ze/sie etc on me.

Not just myself I think there's a lot of people who fight hard to be recognized for various reasons, and I do believe that in the GLBTQ-XYZ community pronouns are often part of that.

Metro

ETA: Like you say, just ask... I don't think it's all that hard.
(per? I've never heard of that)

[Dylan]

I don't think there should be a catch-all pronoun for all people.

But I hear people saying, "It's difficult"

If it's difficult, I don't understand why the 'go to' is he/hy

I mean, yeah, I get that there's going to be people with whom One doesn't interact all the time, and maybe One just doesn't know what the pronoun is.

In THAT case, I think the 'default' *should* be a neutral pronoun until One finds out what pronoun Someone uses.

I didn't mean, 'default' as in "Here's the pronoun we're gonna use for all people all the time"

I just meant as, "If One doesn't know, why not pick something neutral"


Because, Yeah, I Don't Think There Should Be A Default,
Dylan

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

This is key to something that's been on my mind a lot lately and I'm going to kind of jump off it...

There are places, milestones in life we as people change and to grow and I've been going though one of those points.

In B-F context it's been coming out sideways as something of a fucking roller coaster really of hating labels, everything feeling itchy and trying to get out from under that feeling. But what I'd like to get at is about 6 weeks ago I took a bit of a self imposed hiatus, and I kind of woke up. Because in that time ended up looking at what was making me itchy about certain things/labels/words and my experiences that shaped those discomforts... instead of looking at how I could get around or avoid them which is what I had been doing.

I agree with you Darth, 100%. In our online community changes/movement (physical or other) along the gender lines is generally celebrated, as long as it's linear- toward male... and the hierarchy works it's way up hand in hand with this. I don't think it's expected for butches to move along that line but that that's the direction, to put it lightly, that's more valued... I don't think that's hard for anyone to see.

But the point... in that hiatus I changed my pronoun to she, and my appearance also changed somewhat... to more of a female appearance- and that doesn't equate to being feminine (again female doesn't mean feminine, two-whole-different-words). And I didn't change internally persay, but more let go of some bullshit I'd been holding on myself... shit I'd let sink it without realizing it.

And with all that I'm aware of the all the crap stuff enough and "unwritten laws" that for about a week I seriously questioned my remaining in the community, and NOT because my butch-ness changed, it didn't and I don't think it could, stone hasn't changed either, I suppose that could but I don't see it. I'm simply re-claiming being female, myself, and with it being female in butch and what that means for myself.

And make no mistake I can handle my own, always have. But it's more a question of with this I just wondered at what point does it push past the point of being worth the bull and the battle.

But part of being able to embrace this change in myself and grow with it is not giving a fuck about what anyone "thinks", we all grow in our own ways, and it's not always linear... but what's right for us. To me that's the most important thing to celebrate... and not which "direction" you went. I know lot of people probably aren't going to get it, but they don't need to except that my butch-ness doesn't depend one iota on how "male" I am or a pronoun, it never has.

You know I've read this a few times and I'm not even sure I got across what I intended... but like I said it's just some shit that's been weighing on my mind a hell of lot lately.

Peace,
Metropolis

Very clear to me, Met! Thank you. I have always gotten so much from your take on things which means you make me think about new aspects and ideas! What I am really happy about is that you will still contribute on these kinds of threads. There are some totally awesome butches that have just given up doing so and I feel that is a great loss. But, I get their frustration as they have been through this a zillion times and feel that they keep repeating things to no avail. I think their insight is needed more than ever.

I share your feelings at times of just exiting the community- even in real-time. A prime reason I date more in other populations in which the B-F identities are just not so pronounced. But, I live in an area in which finding queer, lesbian women overall is quite easy. And there are many, many femmes actually among them that just don't interact on B-F sites or even strictly attend B-F social events. I feel fortunate about this because it has become clear to me that femmes per se that I would be interested in just have to be more global in their thinking. My age does pose some restrictions as I am just not a butch that will date femmes far younger than myself. But, the baby-boom generation is well represented in these populations as well. I certainly find some younger femmes attractive in every aspect of what I perceive attractiveness to be (it isn't just about physical attributes), but I am at a time in life in which someone being able to fully retire fairly soon and does not have young kids that still require them to be around all of the time is what I am looking for. Also, I am just not going to date someone near or younger than my own kid and he's 41.

I'm rambling... anyway, I very much appreciate your thoughts here!

I hope Dusa starts that other thread!!