Some labels do not include trans in the definition

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Here's One Look At 1950s Butch Femme culture.

http://www.mariecartier.com/content/BF.pdf

There's nothing here to indicate any of these people took on traditional male and female roles- in fact quite the opposite. This is a history of women- yes I said women. Women who laid their lives and bodies on the line. As apretty said, many femmes back then had to work as prostitutes to support themselves, their lovers and families. Butch women were repeatedly raped by cops for being butch but refused to go into hiding and looked their rapist straight in the face.

These were working class people. Upper class people could have private parties in their homes. Working class people met in public places like bars and faced the wrath of the cops.

This is part of my history. I'm not going to take the woman part out. I am happy to hear trans and other perspective as well, but I am not going to take the woman out of butch femme history.

I see your point, and I appreciate your wanting to protect your history

However, not every butch...even back then...identified with 'being a woman'.

To deny that there were transmen involved in that history is to deny trans history and look at butch-femme culture from a very myopic cis perspective

Many many many transpeople (both mtfs and ftms) have been involved in b-f history from the beginning


Dylan

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I see your point, and I appreciate your wanting to protect your history

However, not every butch...even back then...identified with 'being a woman'.

To deny that there were transmen involved in that history is to deny trans history and look at butch-femme culture from a very myopic cis perspective

Many many many transpeople (both mtfs and ftms) have been involved in b-f history from the beginning


Dylan

I'm not denying anything. Go ahead and share other perspectives. I've read many studies similar to the one I just shared which involved interviewing hundreds of butches and femmes that actually lived through that time period. They share very similar stories from their own voices and perspectives.

Edit: The butches and femmes from the study I cited lived as women, they were treated as women- including having to struggle with having to find jobs (both femmes and butches) because they were women, being beaten and raped, etc because they were women. Please do not dilute this into an "identity" debate. These were real people with real lives. The fact that they were female and women had everything to do with how they walked through this world and what struggles they faced and how they were treated and how they found community and how they lived and how they loved.

[betenoire]

So, back to Linus' question:

So a question to all: do you view those that were mis-assigned the wrong gender at birth as always trans something? if so, why? would you ever view them as wholly their gender (as they should be and not assigned)?

I'm gonna answer your question with another question. Because I tend to do that.

How do you feel about women dating trans(sexual) males but not "biological" (EWWW, I hate typing biomale! Let's say non-trans instead, okay?) males?

I mean, if you're gonna date FTMs but not date, um, Ms...doesn't that on some level indicate that you don't really fully 100% recognize your man's real sex? Or is it the fact that FTMs were at least socialised as Women earlier in life that makes it acceptable to partner with them and not non-trans guys?

(Again with the reiterating that I am talking about transsexual men here, not transgendered.)

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I'm not denying anything. Go ahead and share other perspectives. I've read many studies similar to the one I just shared which involved interviewing hundreds of butches and femmes that actually lived through that time period. They share very similar stories from their own voices and perspectives.

Edit: The butches and femmes from the study I cited lived as women, they were treated as women- including having to struggle with having to find jobs (both femmes and butches) because they were women, being beaten and raped, etc because they were women. Please do not dilute this into an "identity" debate. These were real people with real lives. The fact that they were female and women had everything to do with how they walked through this world and what struggles they faced and how they were treated and how they found community and how they lived and how they loved.

Bulldog, I'm not denying anything

I'm merely stating that b-f culture was not then, nor is it now a 'woman only turf'.

There were many many transpeople involved in butch femme history who also took beatings for being who they were too

I'm also not denying that the one article you provided spoke about butch women. I read the article. Yes, it centered on butch femme folks who id'd as woman.

Nor, am I denying that Nestle likes to focus on CIS women's history as applied to butch femme history

That doesn't mean trans people were not part of the butch-femme history/community/activism/etc

It's only a *(cis)woman's* history if One chooses to focus their attention on *(cis)women*


Dylan