What does "woman" mean in a post-gender world?

[Heart]

First off -- much of the world is anything but post-gender, so although I am a proponant of a global persepctive, in this thread I suppose we'd have to look at the "post-gender world" with a somewhat narrower focus.

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity?

What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?"

Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why?

If you do not use the term "woman" how did you come to the decision not to?

How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense).

What does "woman" mean?

What does "woman" not mean?

There are many other questions that could be asked, and by all means ask them.

[BullDog]

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity?

Yes

What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?"

It is very empowering for me and makes me feel more connected with other women.

Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why?

There was a period of time when it didn't seem to quite fit. I have always been very clear that I was not male and have always spoken out strongly against male defaults for butch and been very sure about being female. As I explored my butch identity further, I was feeling butch was a gender into itself for me and that woman didn't really fit because I wasn't like other women. I didn't feel that I had two genders, so I just thought I was butch.

However, I have come to realize that was a mistake for me to not fully embrace woman as part of my gender. It actually robbed me of my strength. I am more about embracing woman now. Butch, woman, female, lesbian all fit together well for me.

If you do not use the term "woman" how did you come to the decision not to?

n/a

How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense).

I think of female as my biological body, woman is more my sense of self and where I fit in with others in the world.

What does "woman" mean?

It's hard for me to say what woman means. I think woman is what we make it to be. I think butch and femme genders both stretch and expand what woman can be. Maybe I will more to say about this later.

What does "woman" not mean?

My first thought is man.

[Linus]

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity?

No.

What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?"

It's a gender definer that does not apply to me.

Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why?

No.

If you do not use the term "woman" how did you come to the decision not to?

I am a transman with a female bodied historical experience.

How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense).

Hrmm.. I don't know because I never felt a need to claim woman. It may be a GID issue, however, as I felt no association or tie to "womanness" (although I did envy those that felt empowered by it).

What does "woman" mean?

Strength, power, courage, fierceness, love, hardness, softness, laughter, compassion, leadership.

What does "woman" not mean?

Limited

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Heart

First off -- much of the world is anything but post-gender, so although I am a proponant of a global persepctive, in this thread I suppose we'd have to look at the "post-gender world" with a somewhat narrower focus.

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity?

Sometimes

What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?"

It means I am exerting my power, my space.

Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why?

Nope

Cause I am a queer woman, no one can take that from me.. No one..

If you do not use the term "woman" how did you come to the decision not to?

N/A

How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense).


Female is a gender label someone decided to decide for me at birth..


Woman is what I am and will continue to be/
What does "woman" mean?

Strengthy Sexy

What does "woman" not mean?

weak

There are many other questions that could be asked, and by all means ask them.

That is all...

[Kobi]

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity?

Most definately!

What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?"

It celebrates what I am...a female, a woman, a strong woman. It is a sense of pride, it is a sense of being. It is also appreciating my female body parts which I think are quite nifty.

Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why?

No. I have always identified as a human, a female, a woman, a lesbian, a butch......in that order. I have ever experienced anything female as being foreign or uncomfortable.....well except maybe for pantyhose.

If you do not use the term "woman" how did you come to the decision not to?

n/a

How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense).

For me, being a female and a woman is the same thing.

What does "woman" mean?

For me, it is a combination of physical, emotional, intellectual, and spiritual aspects of being into a unique whole.

What does "woman" not mean?

It means not male/man.

[Pretty Woman]

Originally Posted by Heart

First off -- much of the world is anything but post-gender, so although I am a proponant of a global persepctive, in this thread I suppose we'd have to look at the "post-gender world" with a somewhat narrower focus.

I am fascinated by how anyone could presume that any on this planet lives in a 'post-gender' world unless they never leave their house! So I'd be very interested to understand where that reality plays itself out from your perspective.

[Heart]

Originally Posted by Pretty Woman

I am fascinated by how anyone could presume that any on this planet lives in a 'post-gender' world unless they never leave their house! So I'd be very interested to understand where that reality plays itself out from your perspective.

I absolutely agree that we do not actually live in a post-gender world. So I used the term in a narrow, academic sense related to the theoretical deconstructing of the term "woman" that I was encouraging in this thread.

[adorable]

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity? It is my identity

What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?" Using the word woman as who I am makes sense for me. It naturally fits me. I have never had anyone misunderstand that or get confused when I use the word.

Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why?
Only in here. Butch and Femme are genders for some. They are not for me. The use of the word butch and femme mean very different things to different people. Queer does fit with woman for me. As an ID I have settled on that IN HERE. In my personal life, in the real world, around people who use the words in the same way that I do - I do ID differently.

If you do not use the term "woman" how did you come to the decision not to? N/A

How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense). Female for me is what is between my legs and is my sex. Woman is how I feel inside which nicely matches my outside.

What does "woman" mean? For me it means I'm an adult of the female sex.

What does "woman" not mean? For me it doesn't mean weak, restricted or boxed.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by Heart

First off -- much of the world is anything but post-gender, so although I am a proponant of a global persepctive, in this thread I suppose we'd have to look at the "post-gender world" with a somewhat narrower focus.

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity?
No.

What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?"
It means I am not a woman.

Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why?
NA

If you do not use the term "woman" how did you come to the decision not to?
I was honest with myself.

How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense).
Woman suggests a female that has reached a certain level of maturity.

What does "woman" mean?
Many, many things, but I will go with unlimited possibilities, as my succinct answer.

What does "woman" not mean?
Well, it isn't a dirty word.

There are many other questions that could be asked, and by all means ask them.

I tried to be a woman, and it didn't work. I tried to be a dyke/lesbian, and I always felt like I was the enemy. Once upon a time, I was a butch, now I'm a guy, and it feels right.

[princessbelle]

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity? yes I am a woman, by my own identity and my own individual definition.
What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?" For myself it means simply...I am a woman, female, and in my case femme. That is of course based on my personal preference.
Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why? One of the first things I ask when I am beginning to date someone or even talking more indepth as friends, is "how do you prefer to be called". It is so individualized but yet so simple to just ask. I try not to generalize when I use the term "woman".
If you do not use the term "woman" how did you come to the decision not to? If the person I am speaking with doesn't want that used, it's not biggie to me...I leave it up to them and try to satisfy their need in their identity.
How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense). IMO female is how someone is born, their biological "type". It does not mean that is "who" they are in the inside, just the outside. Again, my opinion. I would never assume a butch wants to be called woman and again wouldn't assume they wouldn't. I just ask before I step where I shouldn't.
What does "woman" mean? to me...female identified, not how one is born.
What does "woman" not mean? I don't know how to answer that one....woman to me does not mean male identified.....

hard questions and gets me thinking a lot. I will stick to asking, always asking and doing my darnest never to "assume" what someone prefers. Lucky I talk a lot i suppose ...lol.

[Jett]

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity?

I would look at it as more as something I am, but a huge and important part of my internal identity yes.

What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?"

It means I'm acknowledging for myself women's ability to be, feel and do anything. Acknowledging and standing beside and with what I see as a huge beautiful force of nature that's proven it's strength and power despite and against being cast in the role of weak underdog from day one.

Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why?

Nope, it has, but it doesn't for me now. As far as any discomfort it came more from outside comments about what it means to be a butch, a woman, a women's place, woman-man jokes and stereotyping of it.

If you do not use the term "woman" how did you come to the decision not to?

I didn't for a while, this is partially why. When I didn't acknowledge it, when it made me flinch I assumed it was because it didn't fit me and was wrong... but letting go proved impossible and I had to step back and examine why it made me flinch instead of just conveniently avoiding the flinch by not claiming it... if I'm making sense.

In the end, some life experiences (as a female as a woman as a butch) that I harbored a lot of ouch and anger over I had turned inward on myself, and the further I got from woman in my head the more secure I felt... more in control and untouchable (not physically) in that sense. I've always been a strong ass peep who nothing ever touched me, but sometimes things subtly change you even when you're busy being a strong ass peep about it. Weird I know. I don't think I can explain it adequately without divulging private stuff I'm not going to do here.

How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense).

Female is something you're born to... women is something you grow into, a sense of self as being part of a diverse sisterhood and history struggles, victories and losses alike.

What does "woman" mean?

Aside from gender of the female persuasion... for me a person who acknowledges and feels the word's meaning in its past and present internally and a sort of bond with those things plus...

What does "woman" not mean?

It does not mean, weak, submissive, receptacle, possession, second class or even feminine in many cases as we know here.

[firie]

Originally Posted by Heart

First off -- much of the world is anything but post-gender, so although I am a proponant of a global persepctive, in this thread I suppose we'd have to look at the "post-gender world" with a somewhat narrower focus.

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity?

Kinda, but not really. I'm a girl or more preferably a lady. Or a bitch, sometimes. I think of that Neil Diamond song and, well, I am the person that never, ever really wants to "be a woman soon." Woman, as self-prescribed identity, has and always does feel odd on me, for some reason, unless and only when I am his woman.

What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?"

I don't know, really. I really don't like that Neil Diamond song. Talk about squicking.


Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why?

It's feels better with femme or queer, but again, I wouldn't say that I am a queer woman, wouldn't use it. I would default to queer femme or just queer.

If you do not use the term "woman" how did you come to the decision not to?

I don't refer to myself as a woman typically, but like I said girl, lady, or bitch, or whatever. I don't consciously in dialogue say something like, "I am a woman and that is how I identify."

How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense).

I sometimes have the same issue with "female," just a discomfort. Female just feels so scientific, and patriarchal. And I don't know why other words feel better. Woman, to me, is a trope.

What does "woman" mean?

Means different things to different people. I am not sure quite what it means to me.

What does "woman" not mean?

I don't really know. Someone said not man, but then that is my whole problem with woman. I want a new word and one that doesn't imply opposite of man in any way in its historical or current meaning. Even when reclaimed and redefined. I want a new word.

There are many other questions that could be asked, and by all means ask them.

Posting here or my message will be too short.

[CherylNYC]

I'm trying to follow your logic, but I can't get past the title. There is no place on earth, or in cyberspace, that could be misconstrued as 'post gender'.

I hope I'm not insulting anyone here, but I have no doubt that academics who believe they've facilitated/created/willed into being a 'post gender world' are deluded. There is no place, no language, no circumstance that is not utterly suffused with gender, and assumptions, judgments and injustices based on same.

I'm sure it's interesting to some academics to theorize about some sort of idealised world that is fully populated by people with slippery ambiguous genders defined only by themselves, and where those genders can be as changeable as the phases of the moon. That world exists in the minds of people who have been having fun making it up, kind of like a video game.

If anyone would like to remember what it means to work in the real world with men who have NO gender ambiguity WHATSOEVER, I invite you to visit me in the scene shop.

OK. It's safe to come back out, now. The grouchy old curmudgeon has retired for a nap.

[Heart]

Cheryl -- I'm not a proponent of the term post-gender, as I said above. I just used the term to frame this discussion in this thread. In this little online world we do a lot of what might be considered gender deconstruction. That's what made me think of "post gender." I'm not an academic - so maybe I misused the phrase. Anyway, post-gender is not the important part. Exploring identifying as/with (or not) "woman" is the important part.

[SuperFemme]

I'm interested in hearing your responses to the OP Heart.

[Gemme]

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity?

I am a woman but I feel like I lean more towards girl, in terms of identity.

What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?"

I guess I've never really thought about it (such as the question is). I feel pride when I address myself and I am addressed as, a woman. Women are beautiful, strong, enduring creatures in this world of savage animals. The word itself....woman....feels gentle and graceful and all the things I have the potential to be. I'm not sure I answered the question as it was intended, but that's what I got in shooting from the hip and not reading any of the preceding answers.

Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why?

I don't have any discomfort or tension, no. Queer woman feels more natural in my head though.

How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense).

Besides the obvious examples of a 6 year old being female but not a woman...woman feels more powerful to me than female. I suppose that's due to society's view of females and male privilege and such.

What does "woman" mean?

Strength, beauty, perseverance, responsibility, loyalty, love, competent, daring, fragile, ugly, weak, irresponsibility, disloyalty, hate, incompetency, fearful....it's something different to everyone on different days. I can be all of the above in a single day's time. That is, in my opinion and probably the best descriptor of all, amazing.

What does "woman" not mean?

Again, it's in the perception of each person.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Female is something you're born to... women is something you grow into, a sense of self as being part of a diverse sisterhood and history struggles, victories and losses alike.

Thank you so much for your post Metro, especially this part. I always think of butch and femme as hard won genders that we make our own. When I read this by you I thought, the same is true for woman. Even though it may be a default gender for females, it is actually one that we make our own too. And there can be a lot of twists and turns when you are butch or don't fit the mold of a typical woman. For a time, I felt like I was a bit on the outside looking in when it came to woman. I don't anymore.

Also, in being a woman, I feel that I am part of a much larger community- with deep historical roots and global in nature. That is a very powerful thing. As I have come back full circle to embrace the woman that is a part of who I am, that has felt very powerful.

[Martina]

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity?
i do.


What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?"
Well, it means a continuity with my mother and with the women who i admire. On a very deep level, i have grown into myself by reading about and observing and talking to other women. i have learned to love myself through my admiration and love for other women, many of whom died before i was born. Being a woman is not just my gender. It's my history. i wouldn't be who i am if i hadn't read certain women writers or heard stories about women in history. Brave women, sexual women, smart women. i can't imagine the loss i would feel if i didn't claim woman.



Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why?
No. i don't use it in combination with other IDs. i am a woman first.

If you do not use the term "woman" how did you come to the decision not to?

How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense).

Female is just a box on forms.

What does "woman" mean?
i have never had children, so it doesn't mean that to me. It is about my sexuality. i feel like a woman when i have sex. If i don't, i don't have sex with that person anymore.

It's about my body and the way i live in it. Having a period. Having some kinds of strengths and not others.

It's about beauty and comfort and warmth. i associate woman with so many good things. Grace above all. Not that these are exclusive to women, or that any woman without these characteristics is less than women. That's just what woman means to me.



What does "woman" not mean?

i am not sure.

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by Heart

First off -- much of the world is anything but post-gender, so although I am a proponant of a global persepctive, in this thread I suppose we'd have to look at the "post-gender world" with a somewhat narrower focus.

Honestly I don't want to live in a post gender world. Post gender means after gender (like post ww2 means after ww2) What would we be if there were no gender? I don't want to live in a world where we are all the same, how boring. I like the big, confusing, wonderful, beautiful rainbow of all of us no matter how fucked up it can be.

Do you use the term "woman" as part of your identity?

It is what 99% of humanity would call me looking at me. Am I a woman Yes I am.

What does it mean to you to use/not use the term "woman?"

not much, perhaps because I don't have angst about "me" I don't worry/think about this type of stuff.

Does tension/discomfort exist for you in using the term "woman" together with butch, femme, queer, or any of your other identity definers? If so, why?

No

If you do not use the term "woman" how did you come to the decision not to?

n/a

How is "woman" different from "female" (and I don't mean in the academic sense, but in the lived experience sense).

In the lived sense of my life there isn't any difference

What does "woman" mean?

not man

What does "woman" not mean?

man

There are many other questions that could be asked, and by all means ask them.

I fully understand that there are people whose need to question their own gender ect is driven from a deep disparity between how they appear and who they are. I fully understand there are more than 2 genders. I also understand that there are people for whom it all matches up. More importantly we all should be accepted as we are and as we grow and evolve.

Personally I like to look at things from a different angle.
We are here on this planet
We are all human
We all have the same needs for love, acceptance, and community.
We all feel that this web site is a place we want to be
We are all different yet so alike
deconstructing things can help us understand each other better
But we need to reconstruct things when we are done
To reaffirm our connections
our support for each other

[Heart]

Clarification: This thread and the question it poses rose out of other threads/discussions in the gender/labels/identities forum, particularly a discussion about pronouns that evolved in the "men with boobs" thread.

Thanks to all who have answered.