2020 Presidential Election

[Martina]

As a native of the Dayton area, who went to school and worked in Dayton, I don't think Dayton needs people from outside our nation's boundaries advocating for us. We will do fine, thank you very much. Dayton was the Ohio city most affected by the opioid crisis, but is now the model city for reducing deaths from opioids. We don't need others patronizing us.

I also think if you're going to make a point about remembering, you might get the names right. It's Parkland, not Parkdale. I don't think too many U.S. citizens would have made that error because the lives lost were our own.

[Allison W]

Originally Posted by cathexis

Perhaps, you misunderstand what I mean by Far Left. In my understanding, the Far Left are the parties that include the Trotskyists and Left Anarchists not what is being referred to in popular political rhetoric today. If you are indeed speaking the same parties as I am, then we need to have a real conversation.

The U.S. is not, in any way, in shape to have a revolution. The true left does not have the support needed. Now, if you're talking Sanders and Democratic Socialism, maybe the country can entertain the idea. Only maybe, but Bernie doesn't have the backing, polls reveal that centrists would be more likely to be successful.

I feel that we need to, above all, defeat Trump else this current Fascist course continue. However, there are leftists who believe that the more right-wing a climate, the more likely a revolution will succeed. Personally, I prefer not to tempt fate.

I mean, long-term? Liberal capitalism is a sinking ship and will give way to either socialism or fascism. I agree that right now we don't have the right conditions for revolution, but it's not because we're not far enough to the right, it's because right-wing propaganda that survival interests are determined by racial tribe rather than by economic class has been extremely successful. There's a reason I back the candidate who speaks of forbidden ideas like the class consciousness: the more people are aware that an elite class of users that can be defined by the power they have over resources and their ability to control others' access to resources, not any racial or ethnic grouping, is what's killing us, the more likely socialist revolution will succeed.

Also, centrism isn't a solution, because the status quo that centrists want to return to is the disease. Because the status quo, the center, is that the rich continue to get richer, the poor continue to get poorer, and the planet continues to choke to death on an endless spew of carbon, methane, and other greenhouse gases, and, oh, we continue putting immigrants in concentration camps because Trump didn't start that; it was happening under Obama too. That is the norm; that is our default. The right wing sublimates our fears into a fear of the brown and queer Other, and blames the brown and queer Other for the hopelessness looming in the mind of everyone who isn't in a bubble, and that's what put Trump in office in 2016. If we put a centrist in office in 2020, all we do is kick the can down the road for four more years and then get someone even worse than Trump in 2024 because only the fascists are offering even the pretense of an escape from the diseased status quo, even if it's a false one.

But yeah. The fascism is not something Trump created. It already exists at the heart of our political status quo, and that status quo resulted in Trump, not the other way around.

Also those polls don't measure the masses of disillusioned who only show up to vote if there's a candidate worth voting for; they are calibrated around the people who will show up even if the menu is absolute shit, because it's a lot harder to predict how many irregular voters a candidate will mobilize if they get nominated. Hell, they don't even measure people without landlines, which is to say, voters under 40 are largely excluded. But suffice it to say there are far more irregulars and young people to win over than there are "centrists" to win over.

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

I would like to get back to the 2020 election if at all possible, anyone else?

Did you all see the news this weekend regarding Booker, Sanders and Harris stumping at a church where the Pastor has said that LGBTQIA folks are going to Hell and that we are all child molesters?

Are the candidates so out of touch that they just go where they are told to go, or do they just not care?

***edited to add...the story was on LGBTQ Nation.****

I can't speak for Booker or Harris, but this is... a little extreme for Sanders but otherwise on-brand. Like, this isn't the first time he's gone into a right-wing venue to spread left-wing ideas, because besides the young and the dispossessed, his campaign doesn't work by simply attempting to parrot agreement with someone's existing stances (either by moving to the center or preaching to the choir) but rather by winning over converts, frequently by way of priming non-rich cultural conservatives to vote for their economic interests rather than on cultural grounds. He won't win over that pastor, but he might win over some of the congregation.

Originally Posted by dark_crystal

I Beto having a moment out there or is it just in Texas?

He said "what the fuck" over the weekend and everyone swooned all over social media.

I mean I did gain a little respect for him when he had that candid explosion about what the source of our gun violence problem is, yes.

Speaking of that gun violence problem, I gotta say that very few of the ideas we actually have on the table now will have the desired effect. The only one currently in circulation that might actually help would be tightening restrictions on people convicted of DV charges having guns to give the DA and other local authorities less ability to let the perp weasel out of it. A lot of others would just make it more difficult for poor people (like minorities at risk of right-wing violence) to own guns. Also fuck Andrew Cuomo's stupid proposal for a mental health registry. That's all we fucking need, a centralized list of people to stigmatize for needing mental health care, when mental illness has no relationship to our current mass shooting crisis. We already know who our mass shooters are and they're not mentally ill: they're largely domestic abusers and the politically motivated, particularly white nationalists.

tl;dr If we banned domestic abusers and white nationalists from owning guns, we could stop mass shootings and abolish the police at the same time, this is extremely efficient policy-making.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by Allison W

Also, centrism isn't a solution, because the status quo that centrists want to return to is the disease. Because the status quo, the center, is that the rich continue to get richer, the poor continue to get poorer, and the planet continues to choke to death on an endless spew of carbon, methane, and other greenhouse gases, and, oh, we continue putting immigrants in concentration camps because Trump didn't start that; it was happening under Obama too. That is the norm; that is our default. The right wing sublimates our fears into a fear of the brown and queer Other, and blames the brown and queer Other for the hopelessness looming in the mind of everyone who isn't in a bubble, and that's what put Trump in office in 2016. If we put a centrist in office in 2020, all we do is kick the can down the road for four more years and then get someone even worse than Trump in 2024 because only the fascists are offering even the pretense of an escape from the diseased status quo, even if it's a false one.

But yeah....fascism is not something Trump created. It already exists at the heart of our political status quo, and that status quo resulted in Trump, not the other way around.

I hope you don't mind Allison that I've excerpted the best part of your latest post. Thank you for saying it so well. I agree with you 100%.

[Kätzchen]

I got home tonight and while surfing today's top headline news in politics, I read about Harry Reid making the case for getting rid of the 'fillibuster' and how Senator Elizabeth Warren is backing that idea with all the strength she can- politically.

Those 'tightey-whitey' GOP senators who have been strangling the heck out of any last ounce or shred of credibility in how they want ppl to think they are putting the will of the people first? I hope that they will RUE the DAY when they lose their chairs in the Senate because I don't think they've ever put the will of the people first. They keep putting their own self interests ahead of the greater good of the American public.

How anyone cannot see the racist practices employed by the GOP and their henchmen, and monster in the WH, is beyond me.

Meanwhile, the economy is on the brink of something far worse than the recession of 2008 and the GOP keeps shredding policy (s) that protects the most vulnerable of the American population and immigrants, and policy that is there for the sake of e v e r y o n e.


*Tick Tock, Tick Tock*



Super grateful tonight for those who are working on behalf of the people, The Democrats.

[Martina]

Hickenlooper's out. I liked him. I gave him a couple bucks early on. He wouldn't have been bad.

Beto made a weird speech. Instead of going to the Iowa State Fair, because there's probably no point, he's going to Mississippi to talk about the immigration raids. His weirdly phrased explanation: "Where Donald Trump has been terrorizing and terrifying and demeaning our fellow Americans, that’s where you will find me in this campaign."

It sounded like some cartoon superhero proclaiming his mission. Underdog O'Rourke to the rescue.

[cathexis]

Originally Posted by Martina

Hickenlooper's out. I liked him. I gave him a couple bucks early on. He wouldn't have been bad.

Beto made a weird speech. Instead of going to the Iowa State Fair, because there's probably no point, he's going to Mississippi to talk about the immigration raids. His weirdly phrased explanation: "Where Donald Trump has been terrorizing and terrifying and demeaning our fellow Americans, that’s where you will find me in this campaign."

It sounded like some cartoon superhero proclaiming his mission. Underdog O'Rourke to the rescue.

Beto's speech made sense to me right off. The joy and fun of a fair is inappropriate for a politician when his home state is in mourning. That's how it would be perceived by people who aren't thinking politics.

As for the fairly unknown candidates, I like Bennet (probable sp). Yeah, he's pretty centrist, but I think he's a honest and hard working politician who truly cares about our country. Anybody else hear how this quiet guy stood up against Cruz about flooding in Colorado? In chambers, he rose and paced, obviously upset. Apparently, Cruz had said something negative about money for flood victims. Bennet spoke of the farmers, ranchers, and small businesses destroyed by the flood. Sounded like he truly cared about his constituents.

[easygoingfemme]

I'm enjoying following Andy Yang. He was one of my brother's closest friends growing up and he was a regular at our dinner table. We are friends on facebook and I get to see pictures of him doing goofy things with his family and keeping it real. Not saying he has my vote, but, he's a good guy and I like his approach. Pretty sure my mom is going to vote for him because we know my brother would have.

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by Martina

Hickenlooper's out. I liked him. I gave him a couple bucks early on. He wouldn't have been bad.

Beto made a weird speech. Instead of going to the Iowa State Fair, because there's probably no point, he's going to Mississippi to talk about the immigration raids. His weirdly phrased explanation: "Where Donald Trump has been terrorizing and terrifying and demeaning our fellow Americans, that’s where you will find me in this campaign."

It sounded like some cartoon superhero proclaiming his mission. Underdog O'Rourke to the rescue.

He's trying to make himself into "the immigration guy" and it is frustrating bc Castro is one step ahead of him always but gets no coverage

[C0LLETTE]

Originally Posted by Martina

As a native of the Dayton area, who went to school and worked in Dayton, I don't think Dayton needs people from outside our nation's boundaries advocating for us. We will do fine, thank you very much. Dayton was the Ohio city most affected by the opioid crisis, but is now the model city for reducing deaths from opioids. We don't need others patronizing us.

I also think if you're going to make a point about remembering, you might get the names right. It's Parkland, not Parkdale. I don't think too many U.S. citizens would have made that error because the lives lost were our own.

How do you know what the people of Dayton "need" ? Are you really speaking for "the people of Dayton" because you once lived there? I don't speak for all Canadians even though people here try to keep shoving me into that corner

What is it you actually know/remember about the Holocaust? But I sure as Hell wouldn't hate you for referencing that pain, even 70 years later. I wouldn't ask you to prove you were Jewish or show me where you live..even if you misspelled the name of every single Concentration Camp.

There was nothing patronizing about my post except what you demagogically tried to stick in there.

As for Parkdale/Parkland... Why are you so unable to accept that even if one person outside America remembers those crimes it is something to acknowledge positively. The murder of children, even if those children are American, is not a crime only against America.

Do you really think that only citizens of Somalia can speak out on the massacres there, only citizens of Hong Kong can speak out on the repression there, only Saudis can speak out about the murder of reporters there?

You don't need to be able to spell every name right, every chronology exactly, to have a right to express an empathy for the central issue...

otherwise you end up with an ever diminishing circle of nodding heads and no one else feels a right to speak out...even in the most innocuous way.

And please stop looking for the tiniest reference to try to diminish larger points...it just looks impotent .

[MsTinkerbelly]

My point about Booker/Sanders/Harris, was that by going to that venue for their political gain, and not as a push back to the message of hate by their pastor, gave implicit approval to his message. In essence, saying that he had the power to bring together an audience of right leaning people to hear their stump speech, so it was fine that he spoke out against us.

This was not right leaning Foxx news giving them a townhall, this was someone using hate speech against our community, and the 3 of them NEVER addressed the issue. Booker and Harris ATTENDED A CHURCH SERVICE, while Sanders went so far as to give his political stump speech.

I won’t vote for any of them, and Harris was my prior choice.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by MsTinkerbelly

My point about Booker/Sanders/Harris, was that by going to that venue for their political gain, and not as a push back to the message of hate by their pastor, gave implicit approval to his message. In essence, saying that he had the power to bring together an audience of right leaning people to hear their stump speech, so it was fine that he spoke out against us.

This was not right leaning Foxx news giving them a townhall, this was someone using hate speech against our community, and the 3 of them NEVER addressed the issue. Booker and Harris ATTENDED A CHURCH SERVICE, while Sanders went so far as to give his political stump speech.

I won’t vote for any of them, and Harris was my prior choice.

You make a salient point, and I agree with your assessment. Why is that, that people have a hard time not seeing the exact point you make: That all three of them never addressed that specific issue -- the glaring issue of not calling out the undisguisable bigotry of hate speech directed toward the greater LGBTQ community?

In a parallel type situation, NPR's 'Fresh Air' hosts took up the larger discussion about how the owner of a nation-wide gym facility is actually hosting a T^^^P fundraiser at his Connecticut home; that said owner's profits must be funding right-wing nationalist agenda for T/P because they have been soliciting big-ticket prices to attend this (COUGH/PUKE) event at the gym owner's private Connecticut residence; that even gym attendee's in West Hollywood (who were interviewed on the radio show) took issue with how the gym owner is basically thumbing his nose at the community that supports his facilities and how people just don't get how awful it is that the place they've been pumping money into is none other that a hate-sponsoring enterprise with no conscience on how they are using their profits to fund T-monster-land, etc.

My heart is hurting for those who are being rounded up in ICE raids: parents and kids lives are torn apart with unimaginable heartache.


First They Came ...


They came for the Communists, and I
didn’t object – For I wasn’t
a Communist;

They came for the Socialists, and I
didn’t object – For I wasn’t a Socialist;

They came for the labor leaders, and I
didn’t object – For I wasn’t a labor leader;

They came for the Jews, and I didn’t
object – For I wasn’t a Jew;

Then they came for me –
And there was no one left to object.

Martin Niemöller



Friedrich Gustav Emil Martin Niemöller (14 January 1892 – 6 March 1984) was a German theologian and Lutheran pastor. He is best known for his opposition to the Nazi regime during the 1930s and for his widely quoted poem "First they came ...". (LINK)