The Purse: Unpacking Femme Privilege

[Mrs. Strutt]

I'm not sure where I fit into this thread either.

I grew up in a family of extreme white privilege--financially, educationally, just about in all ways you can think of. My family also never cared I was gay, I am close to my siblings and my parents are still happily married after 48 years. I don't know a lot about hardship or what it is like to live life without any safety nets.

My background, however, has made me shy away from talking about how I grew up. Mention the word "privilege" and I tend to cringe. Through the years, I've been judged fairly harshly on occasion for having a privileged life, so I hide my upbringing or any indication I might have privileges not enjoyed by others as a result.

My femme privilege is not something I dwell on for those reasons. Maybe someday I will be able to think about privilege--any kind of privilege--without negative energy attached to the thoughts.

[Nat]

I think many femmes do have privilege, but I'm not sure it's exactly femme privilege. I'm trying to think what exactly femme privilege would be, and although I can think of many privileges shared by femmes which are not shared by many butches and transguys, I see these falling into two distinct categories: a very real privilege based on gender-expectation-conformity and passing privilege.

Here are my thoughts.

Gender-Expectation-Conformity Privilege

Insofar as a person's gender-presentation matches a culture's gender-expectation, that person has privilege. When I walk into a bathroom, people see a woman who looks like a woman. When I'm pulled over by the police, they see a woman who looks like a woman. When I go anywhere and do anything, people see a woman who looks like a woman. That is a privilege.

I also think this gender-expectation-conformity privilege extends to issues of being gay-bashed or harrassed by homophobic strangers. It's not usually a person's orientation that strangers notice - it's their gender presentation - unless a person is on the arm of another person of the same perceived gender or wearing items of clothing that scream, "I'm queeeeeeeeeeer." But

I don't consider it a "femme privilege," and here's why: Not all femmes have this privilege. Not all butches are without this privilege, not all non-femme queer or lesbian women are without this privilege.

It's a privilege that many femmes have, but to call it femme privilege seems to put some restrictions on the definition of what a femme is and is not - which subsequently seems to try to disqualify/discount/erase the femmeness of those who don't meet the gender-expectation-conforming requirement.

Furthermore, the term "femme privilege" used to mean "gender-expectation-conforming privilege" also implies restrictions on the definitions of butches, of non-b-f queer and lesbian women and even some transguys (and probably others).. Not every butch is mistaken for a man when she or he or hy enters a bathroom. Not every butch is interpreted as anything other than a gender-non-conforming woman. Not every non-femme lesbian or queer women is interpreted as anything other than a gender-non-conforming woman. To imply that femmes are the only ones who get this privilege - even in a strictly butch-femme culture is to imply that butches who receive the same privilege are somehow not butch or less butch.

Passing-Privilege

Is it a Privilege?

Passing as straight and/or cisgender is often cited as a femme privilege, but passing-privilege is such a mixed bag. I'm not sure it's exactly a privilege, though it sure can have some advantages. I know in the past I've seen some really great, highly informed discussions of whether or not passing is a privilege. I can't replicate those here, but my impression is that it's not the same type of privilege the type of privilege you get for being read for who you actually are. I am sure there are others here who can speak to this aspect with more authority than I can.

Who in our Community has Passing Privilege?

Again, as with Gender-Expectation-Conforming Privilege, conflating Passing-Privilege with "Femme Privilege" implies that this is a privilege unique to and inclusive of all femmes. There are femmes who do not pass for straight and/or cisgender even when they try real hard. There are butches who do pass for straight and/or cisgender. There are plenty of non-femme queer and lesbian women who pass for straight and/or cisgender.

Do femmes have privileges not covered by the above? I can't think of any others, but I'm a bit tired today. Are any of these privileges due to femmeness, or are they due to other traits shared with many other people?

Though I cannot see exactly how "femme privilege" exists, I do think many (the majority?) of femmes have the above-listed privileges. Am I being too stringent in my application? If these privileges applied to 80% of femmes, 60% of non-b-f queer and lesbian women and 20% of butches, would it still qualify as femme privilege?

I have met both butches and femmes in person and online who express dismay at their own lack of conformity to butch/femme gender-expression standards. (For example, how many butches wear make-up vs how many butches will admit they wear make-up in this community? How many butches wear women's underwear vs how many butches will admit they wear women's underwear in this community? How many femmes are daily read as lesbians vs how many femmes will admit they are read as lesbians in this community? How many femmes hate wearing dresses or makeup vs how many femmes will admit they hate wearing dresses or makeup within this community?

I just think calling this privilege "femme privilege" may re-enforce an external standard for internally-defined identities.

I'm open though - these just my tired thoughts for the moment.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Mrs. Strutt

I'm not sure where I fit into this thread either.

I grew up in a family of extreme white privilege--financially, educationally, just about in all ways you can think of. My family also never cared I was gay, I am close to my siblings and my parents are still happily married after 48 years. I don't know a lot about hardship or what it is like to live life without any safety nets.

My background, however, has made me shy away from talking about how I grew up. Mention the word "privilege" and I tend to cringe. Through the years, I've been judged fairly harshly on occasion for having a privileged life, so I hide my upbringing or any indication I might have privileges not enjoyed by others as a result.

My femme privilege is not something I dwell on for those reasons. Maybe someday I will be able to think about privilege--any kind of privilege--without negative energy attached to the thoughts.

I get this, Mrs. Strutt!

It's hard for me to hear "Oh, that's just your privilege" talking when I feel like it's something I didn't have control over.
Being white, a Femme, cisgendered, and the other myriad ways that there are privileges (situational and static) in my way of being feels negative sometimes.
I dont *want* to be told Im privileged for being white or cisgendered when I have a background that includes various class/size/ability struggles. It feels like all of my hardship gets negated by merely being white/cisgendered/Femme in B-F space/etc.
I do know on a core level that I have privileges even if I don't exert them in ugly ways or even if Im hyper aware of them. They're there. Sometimes I can see them, sometimes other people have to see them for me.

I can understand shying away from talking about how you grew up - especially if there is immediate judgment attached to you by other people when you talk about it.

[Lynn]

The trap I have fallen into in the past is to imagine that the world is generally one way, and I am another. It has lead to a lot of insecurity and questioning about how I present and how I'm perceived. What's true for me is that my experience of the world, and how I am perceived in the world, has more to do with the specific environment than to a generalized expectation of how the world "is" or what I am supposed to look like. And, how I experience acceptance and privilege is directly proportionate to my ability to be overt about my identity as a lesbian (and sometimes as a Jew).

I know I am privileged in many ways. I am an educated, white, able-bodied, middle class woman who meets all outward expectations. As close as I get to other cultures and experiences in my work, I can never own them as mine. I understand the idea of "femme privilege" but it's more difficult to see this. At least, it seems complex to me. There is no down-side to me being seen as white--I am white. But, maybe if I had African ancestry, I would be ambivalent about "passing" and the associated privileges. Being femme (or, for me, really a lesbian), it is a mixed thing to be perceived in one way but know that I am another. It creates conflict and, for me, and sometimes it causes depression and paranoia. Any time I feel that I must hide my identity, I don't consider this a privilege. But, then again, I am not dealing with basic needs and rights. It is definitely a privilege to reasonably expect to be treated with dignity by people on the street, in stores, in bathrooms, and by public servants.

I am thinking out loud about this--.

[lipstixgal]

I don't know where I fit in this thread but here goes. I'm white, educated and very privileged. I don't fit the typical lesbian whatever that is I'm a femme but look straight. In fact all the women at my school I'm studying medical assistant so most students are women and very few lesbians. The lesbians that are there are of color and they don't seem to really care. They are butch!! maybe that makes a difference I don't know. But its really hard to try to be out when everyone thinks you are straight. Anyway, it was good reading everyone's posts and it makes me feel better to be a femme.

[Nat]

I know that in the past, I've supported the idea that there is femme privilege, so this morning I decided to dig up the lists I made way back when (May, 2007) to see if anything on my list might fall outside of the gender-conforming privilege or passing privilege. Here is the list I made back then:

Oh, I'm gonna color-code these:

Passing Privilege
Gender-Conforming Privilege
Other / Possible Femme Privilege (at least within the Queer Context)


As a femme -

- I can cry without worrying that somebody will think I`m less feminine <--how would you categorize this?
- If I chose to be a housefemme, I wouldn`t face the same judgment a butch would
- I can choose to come out when I want to - on my terms and in the way I choose
- When I go through a breakup, people are more likely to assume I was the innocent victim
- If I talk about my chest - it`s not controversial. Nobody cringes (at least not at the idea of my having a chest)<-- how would you categorize this one?
- If I ask somebody for a tampon - I get a normal reaction <--how would you categorize this one?
- If I walk into the ladies room, I get no reaction
- If I sit down at Denny`s, the old man across the way doesn`t stare at me all through dinner due to my gender presentation
- I can walk down the street without worrying I`m going to be the target of a hate crime due to my gender presentation
- People don`t call me `sir` as a joke <-- how would you categorize this one?
- I can easily find clothes that fit my gender as well as my body
- If I approach (or PM) somebody, it`s usually not seen as predatory or creepy
- I see very few personal ads that say, `NO FEMMES!!!`
- People look at me and give me eye contact when I`m speaking with them
- I can go to the doctor and have the doctor see me and treat me as though I am my gender.
- I can carry a baby without worrying that it negates my perceived gender.
- I can wear a wide range of clothing without bringing my own gender into question or being accused of mocking other people`s gender
- Nobody calls my gender into question if I participate in activities/hobbies which are seen as feminine (i.e. knitting)
- I can spend time, money and attention on making myself look good - without it calling my gender into question
- I can be chatty and giggly without it bringing my gender into question
- I can wear makeup without calling my gender into question.
- I can wear shoes that make me taller without calling my gender into question
- I have the privilege of having titles and pronouns that fit me (she, ma`am, Ms.)
- Nobody has ever once laughed at or made fun of me for my gender presentation

Some of these were hard for me to categorize, but the one that stuck out to me today is that when a butch and a femme break up, it does seem like the sympathy of a community often goes with the femme, and the butch is seen as a dirty dog scoundrel - even if nobody knows the dirty details of the breakup. I'm not sure if other people have seen this or if my vantage point is skewed. I have seen the other scenario happen too - where the femme is painted with the scarlet letter or other implications occasionally.

Again, still open and thinking on this topic. It's a topic that intrigues me very much. I talked a lot earlier about how the gender-nonconforming and passing privileges do apply to people who are not femme and what those effects are - but I think the purple items above apply do apply to femmes and our close cousins - especially in the context of butch-femme culture and dynamics.

[MsMerrick]

Nat, I've been thinking along much the same lines, but haven't time today to reply in any kind of depth : )
Later perhaps, and thanks for putting in the time and effort

[Nat]

Originally Posted by MsMerrick

Nat, I've been thinking along much the same lines, but haven't time today to reply in any kind of depth : )
Later perhaps, and thanks for putting in the time and effort

I am very much looking forward to hearing your perspective! I have lots of feelings, opinions and questions, but trying to think about this is difficult because the subject shifts around so much when I try to think about it.

[Nat]

I was listening to an Outbeat Radio podcast called, "Coming out from Behind the Badge." This was a podcast about police officers both in and out of the closet, and they ended up talking about the negative side-effects of passing within the context of closeted officers. Because I feel that some of these issues do apply to passing privilege as experienced within this community, I went ahead and copied it down:

Gay officers, because a majority of them are in the closet, become the target of harrassment unknowingly by the harrasser. Many officers, they're not out to their families, friends, coworkers - and for that fact, they're unseen. Because they're unseen, a person will make homophobic jokes, gay comments, not knowing that they're affecting their officers sitting at the table. There's been many examples of good officers leaving agencies just because they were afraid that they would not get back-up because of what they've heard in the locker room, or they've heard at the briefing table. The unseen officer is a problem. The officers - once they come out - some harrassment will discontinue. They will not be harrassed in that manner. But their fear of not getting back-up or being ostricized once they are out is a very real threat to their safety.

This is just one example of how passing is a mixed bag. The podcast did interview one female cop and one man who said he is effeminate and that it's always been assumed he was gay. The majority of the officers were masculine men who spent years in the closet, and people assumed they were straight based on their gender presentations. Although there are definitely differences between passing for a straight cisgender man and passing for a straight cisgender woman, I still think this is one of many examples illustrating the mixed bag of passing for straight.

Honestly these days, I'm sick of coming out of the closet. Every aquaintanceship or friendship I begin feels like a game of double-dutch. I'm trying to figure out exactly how and when and in what way to jump in there and say, "I'm a lesbian." If it's too soon, it's out of context. If it's too late, things start feeling dishonest because I know they are assuming I am straight. It's taxing. It doesn't feel like a privilege to feel like I either have to discuss my personal life and identity with people or have them interpret and speak to me me as a straight woman.

Also, as suggested in the quoted text, I don't think it's better to be exposed to homophobic remarks by people who assume I'm straight than to be the intentional target of homophobic language. If I had to choose one-for-one between the two, maybe being the direct target is worse in that it's more immediately threatening, but receiving these messages from people who assume I'm straight is more insidious, frequent and unnerving. I definitely begin to feel those messages are the true feelings of society, and overall that makes me feel less hopeful about humanity.

[LotusFlower]

Hi - passing privilege is true but true. But I do get harrassed for being a femme too.

A butch woman I know wanted to know if I was really gay even though I had been coming to the same gay event for 6 months.

I am not super girlie but a femme through and through.

even if i didn't look Dykey queer, i'd still look queer (odd). i have extremely short hair; i dress eccentrically; i don't talk like the people around here; i wear strange jewelry; i read books in public *GASP* ,and they are weird books, not romances or chicklit (nothing wrong with those, just not my cup of tea; i carry a mug of char around with me; i mutter to myself in strange languages! oh, yes, i am queer indeed!
i've never had the "privilege" of passing for "normal" ever, just by virtue of being who i am. i'm a tomboy femme who sometimes looks like an adoledcent kid. i've even had kids call out to me, "hey, are you a grown-up or a kid?" i sometimes have to think on that one. i'm a 49 yr-old femme who can pass in some of my clothes as a teenage boy! but hey, take a look at how i gesture, walk, or talk, and you'll know i'm a grrl!
my world id is a queer, queer world! *grin*
pres

[Nat]

There's another cost factor with femmes - not all femmes but those who wear makeup, dye our hair or buy product to manage our hair, keep up with style, shoes, hosiery, lingerie, etc. There are butches who might spend just as much on butch style, but I would guess makeup alone adds an expense to many a femme's gender presentation. (some butches also wear makeup too). There are issues of expensive surgeries and medical treatment among some butches and many transmen which would easily outstrip cost of beauty/style products, but then I don't know the numbers when it comes to femme cosmetic surgeries.

I would also think there is more pressure to look younger when one is femme, as age differences between butches and femmes often seem to go in the younger femme / older butch direction (or is this a misperception on my part? Perhaps a poll is necessary). So there might be more femme buying of anti-aging products.

Even when butches or transguys and femmes are around the same age, femmes may tend to feel that pressure as young butches and some transguys often look super young just because of the female-desinated-body masculine presentation can translate this way. I know I have been on one date where my date was interpreted by a flirty waitress as my high school aged son rather than my date - which I found rather irritating at the age of 28 (he was 23).

[Passionaria]

Femme privilege? As many have suggested : privileged compared to what? `Compared to Butches when it comes to cultural acceptance by the dominant society? Because of my dress, my style and mannerisms I do not have to pay a "social toll" for being outside of the "norm" when it come to what is expected of women. Even within my own family, and with my children, I know it is easier for them to accept my GAYNESS because I look feminine. I only rock the boat a little on first glance. It is defiantly easier, but I am not sure I would call it a privilege.

We are spurring a cultural revolution over one of the most deeply ingrained aspects of our society. Gender identification. A 2-3 year old child is aware of gender and the implications of it. Societies are built on, and run on the roles of these ingrained identities.(Weather of not the belief is true or accurate) So how can we expect bending societies gender expectations not to be painful? To many we shake the core beliefs that they have built their lives on. We are gender revolutionaries, and Butches and TG's are on the front line. I think as a group we need to be very real about what we are doing. We are not victims, we are revolutionaries. And yes I see it is a privilege to support and love those who are on the front lines, our Butches. Where would they be without our love??????

Pashi

[Medusa]

Nat kinda touched on this with an earlier post.

Age and Privilege in the Femme world.

Are younger Femmes more privileged in the B/F community than older Femmes? Or is that just an age thing in general?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Nat kinda touched on this with an earlier post.

Age and Privilege in the Femme world.

Are younger Femmes more privileged in the B/F community than older Femmes? Or is that just an age thing in general?

I feel sexism gives them perceived privilege, Nat touched on it with the often older butch younger femme. I do think that it depends on the non femme person though, if they are valuing younger to better that's on them. I personally don't have and have not had an issue growing older as far as dating or fucking. I've enjoyed the company of younger femmes and older because when together and not around a *dating pool* of opportunities femmes bond and talk and share regardless of age. When in a group of Femmes it's really amazing how we all come together, you may have an occasional person who is not there for the bonding with femmes but more on the look out for a future dating prospect but I think those people weed themselves out quite early. So no I don't think they are more privileged per say though I do think they are more free to express themselves and have more ways to access and meet up other queers like themselves. I could be wrong though

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Nat kinda touched on this with an earlier post.

Age and Privilege in the Femme world.

Are younger Femmes more privileged in the B/F community than older Femmes? Or is that just an age thing in general?

Maybe I am alone in my thoughts...

I feel (for myself) that I have WAY more privilege now as an older femme (gonna be a crone soon) then a younger femme. I have EXPERIENCE.

I have no doubt misogyny plays heavy in our community. Older butches lusting after younger femmes. But my internal self esteem knows and believes... What I got going on with this body, mind and soul and the years I have lived and the scars I have endured...

I have even experienced reverse ageism. I would NEVER date a young butch. Hell NO! What would we possibly discuss? LOL - see. Poor younger butches are shunned by older femmes like me.

Give me a seasoned butch with history and the know how - and I am a very happy older femme.

The only privilege I feel a younger femme has over me, is time. She has more time to live her life and experience so many more years of love and love making than I do. She has the privilege of making babies if she should choose. She has the privilege of wearing what she wants, that I (my choice) as an older femme would not wear. She has the opportunities to change her career over and over again, whereas - I am 50, and I know the work place is not as interested in me, as perhaps they might be in someone younger.

Julie

[Quintease]

I didn't have a privileged life. I'm privileged as I'm white, I'm pretty, I pass as middle-class, no one questions my intelligence (except older white heterosexual males), no one bars my way as I walk into the bathroom and most believe me to be better educated than I am.

I don't consider 'passing' as straight to be a privilege aside from the bathroom privilege it accords me. I definitely didn't consider appearing 'straight' to be a privilege when I was trying to get laid on the gay scene. Nor is being pretty much of a privilege when you're young, gay and fending off misogynistic male attention.

I didn't have a privileged life at all, but I accept that in many ways I have been very lucky.

[Reader]

Just a few thoughts. One cannot fake being a femme, nor can one fake being a butch.

Take a femme, throw her in a flannel shirt, dirty jeans and work boots and she will still scream femme. Take a butch, tie her down and put a dress on her and she will still scream butch, no? I know that if I was forced into a dress I would look like a straight man pretending to be a transvestite.

A femme friend once said that she felt a sense of femme anti- privilege, or disadvantage for lack of a better word, because she often saw butches in the public giving each other the “hey dude” acknowledgment look.

She said it was hard for her to get butches to ever ask her out unless she was at a gay event, etc. She said it was a hard to get butches to pay attention to her in public and that other femmes had the same issue. This gave me pause.

So, like an idiot, as an experiment I began to ask women who seemed to be flirting with me (in non-gay places) out for coffee, just to see what would happen. Every single time I got a stunned look and was politely turned down. LOL. Now, sure , maybe I am beastly in every way and that was why I was turned down each time, but I sort of doubt it. I think the women were just straight. After being turned down so often in non-gay places I can see why femmes have a tough time getting butch attention.

I suspect each has its advantages or privileges, and the opposite.

[Vivacious1]

I really don't know if I am completely on track here, but when I was reading I couldn't help thinking of some of the experiences that I have had as a femminine woman. The things I do know are that pretty things make me happy. The fancier the dress the happier I am. I feel like a child at Christmas and my eyes light up when I see something beautiful. I so enjoy the feminine side of me and I indulge it as often and as much as I can. (on a budget) lol.
There is alot of happiness for me being femme and truly living as the woman that I am.
However, that is not to say that there are no negative things that are involved. I have been shunned by other femme women. There are the incidences of partners friends whispering to my partner "Are you sure you wanna deal with this, she is high maintainence" as if this was an insult to who I am. My own family teases me because I dress up when going to dinner. My personality is quite down to earth if given the chance. Why judge the cover? I just wanna be me. I have experienced the defending of a partner when they are entering a women's restroom.... I have felt invisible a good part of my adult life. My last relationship (which was 7 yrs) ended in part because I was only a supporting role, a trophy (per se) to have on hys arm...
Privledged, possibly... I would prefer to think of it as we all have our own burdens. I don't know if mine are bigger than hers or hys all I know is that throughout all of these experiences I have grown stronger and learned to be okay with who I am, how I dress and what makes me me.

[Angeltoes]

Originally Posted by Reader

Just a few thoughts. One cannot fake being a femme, nor can one fake being a butch.

Take a femme, throw her in a flannel shirt, dirty jeans and work boots and she will still scream femme. Take a butch, tie her down and put a dress on her and she will still scream butch, no? I know that if I was forced into a dress I would look like a straight man pretending to be a transvestite.

A femme friend once said that she felt a sense of femme anti- privilege, or disadvantage for lack of a better word, because she often saw butches in the public giving each other the “hey dude” acknowledgment look.

She said it was hard for her to get butches to ever ask her out unless she was at a gay event, etc. She said it was a hard to get butches to pay attention to her in public and that other femmes had the same issue. This gave me pause.

So, like an idiot, as an experiment I began to ask women who seemed to be flirting with me (in non-gay places) out for coffee, just to see what would happen. Every single time I got a stunned look and was politely turned down. LOL. Now, sure , maybe I am beastly in every way and that was why I was turned down each time, but I sort of doubt it. I think the women were just straight. After being turned down so often in non-gay places I can see why femmes have a tough time getting butch attention.

I suspect each has its advantages or privileges, and the opposite.

True, but what about eye-contact first? If you lock eyes first, then you pretty much know how she feels. Around here butches seem to glance and wait for you to notice them. If you do they have the confidence to give that little smile and then if you wait around long enough you get approached.