Open Letter: Dear Femme

[apretty]

Originally Posted by blush

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

don't even get me started.

i am so overly done with the term *high* femme as if there's some HIGHerarcy of femme--if that's the case,
where are all the HIGH butches?

i recall this sort-of date i had, years ago with this not-extremely well put together (which i don't mind, but bare with me, i have a point), nor educated in the ways of "how you conduct yourself on a dinner with me" type-butch. it was summer, i was wearing a teal blouse, black capris and cute sandals (hello! date-appropriate femme-wear! duh!) well this misguided and khaki-shorts-wearing butch sat across from me at this *pizzeria* and began to compare *femme* --his preference for *high* femme (while i denounce the term) and what it means to be *high femme* and it all basically came down to the heels and stockings that this *other* lady-femme-person apparently *lived* in evening wear 24/7. really? to the grocery store? that's just stupid. i repeat, it's stupid to wear evening wear to the grocery store and it does NOT make you HIGH anything.

i mean what the holy fuck--well, next he informed me that i'm not a *natural* submissive--which, enthralled me, because (tongue-in-cheek, here) i am sure, like all of my good sister femmes, i too love being told "about me" by someone i don't know/didn't ask (and who i have zero intention of submitting to/for because frankly, it takes something a little more than a daddy 'title' to get me there. see: ) ok, and if i sound rude, NONE of these people are on this website and i have no ill will towards this person--really, he just was/is misguided in his attempt to define *femme* to me (and not expect that i'll take the opportunity to fuck with him). and the topper: when all is said and done, i am not being a HIGH or GOOD femme because i am extremely disagreeable. and frankly, i can be disagreeable a LOT of the time--it doesn't take from or add to my GENDER.

/end rant. and i blame my sister-femme, blush for getting me all riled on a sunday.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

Do the terms "high" and "low" femme add to this feeling of not being "femme enough?" They've always felt like a ranking system to me.

For me, they don't. When someone id's as a "high" femme, I see, in my mind's eye, someone who likes to put on makeup and do the whole heels&hose drag.

I've never ever thought of it as a ranking or rating at all. I just see it as a qualifier of how much fussin' someone likes to do over their personal appearance.

But honestly, the only time I feel like there is a competition, for me, is how "girly" one can be. And it's a problem in my world to be seen as "not" girly enough.

That's more of a rating/ranking in my world than make-up and clothing (which is my sole identifier for high vs low femme.)

It's the simpering and giggling that get me because I don't personally get it. And, grin, I'm gonna say it outloud. It's the whole Daddy/girl thing played out in public. DO NOT GET IT AT ALL.

I get it as a personal, behind bedroom doors thing. I do not get it as a public play thing. And that's my hang up and it's my issue to deal with. I do not think others should modify their behaviour.

But that is what can also make me feel "not enough" because I am simply not willing to call someone "Daddy" and giggle and coo.

I rambled again. Blush, for what it's worth, you are one of the ones who can make me worry about my own femmeness. And it's not makeup or clothes or any of that. It is simply your own sweet self and your energy. I sometimes feel like a linebacker around women who are petite. Grin. So there you have it.

On my list of femmes who scare me....Blush and Puplove too. OH and femmes like Pinkielee who has the most amazing fashion sense. Shari goes in that category too as well as Adele.

So that's MY issue. It's my problem that I compare myself to others and sometimes find myself wanting.

That's not a butch issue. No butch is standing in the background saying, "Why can't you be more like MedusaIsadoraGemmeAnyoneOtherThanYou." That's my own low self-esteem sneaking up on me.

And I am on a hunt to destroy that voice. But this thread is really helping me identify what I trigger it with. ooh Badger.

So, again, high vs low? Not so much. Arwen vs other femmes? Hideous ranking system where I used to always lose. I'm learning though. I am learning.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by apretty

a teal blouse, black capris and cute sandals (hello! date-appropriate femme-wear! duh!) well this misguided and khaki-shorts-wearing butch sat across from me at this *pizzeria* and began to compare *femme* --his preference for *high* femme (while i denounce the term) and what it means to be *high femme* and it all basically came down to the heels and stockings that this *other* lady-femme-person apparently *lived* in evening wear 24/7. really? to the grocery store? that's just stupid. i repeat, it's stupid to wear evening wear to the grocery store and it does NOT make you HIGH anything.

Holy Hannah! I'd have left him sitting there with cheese hanging out of his mouth.

Now THAT ranking annoys me. I wasn't even considering it coming from a Butch. That one needed an attitude adjustment and I hope you gave him one.

That kind of ranking is about someone else needing to be seen by who is on their arm. That's a shallowness none of us need in our lives. And I'm glad you learned that about that before you actually developed any relationship with him.

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Holy Hannah! I'd have left him sitting there with cheese hanging out of his mouth.

Now THAT ranking annoys me. I wasn't even considering it coming from a Butch. That one needed an attitude adjustment and I hope you gave him one.

That kind of ranking is about someone else needing to be seen by who is on their arm. That's a shallowness none of us need in our lives. And I'm glad you learned that about that before you actually developed any relationship with him.

yes, well you can only try to educate so much... i don't think a word of what i was saying got through at all. and honestly, sometimes i'll participate in a situation longer than is necessary because i'm fascinated by what someone is saying/doing--and not the good fascinated, more like morbid curiosity. this was definitely one of those times. and well, i had to share--that was a real life *example* of what "high femme" means to some--and i am sadly of the thinking that he isn't the only one that thinks like that. (that's what really bothers me.)

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by apretty

yes, well you can only try to educate so much... i don't think a word of what i was saying got through at all. and honestly, sometimes i'll participate in a situation longer than is necessary because i'm fascinated by what someone is saying/doing--and not the good fascinated, more like morbid curiosity. this was definitely one of those times. and well, i had to share--that was a real life *example* of what "high femme" means to some--and i am sadly of the thinking that he isn't the only one that thinks like that. (that's what really bothers me.)

I have to wonder if that isn't a case of media socialization or if that was what his mom was like. may have helped but you are right...some people don't want to learn.

And that's probably okay. Those that want an Angelina Jolie body with a Donna Reed personality and Paula Deen in the kitchen are going to be searching a long damned time. I kind of feel sorry for the emptiness in them that will never ever get filled.

And those femmes who are constantly trying to cram themselves into that picture frame... how do they do it?

[apretty]

i just don't think it's real. and i'm about calling out the shit when i see it.

and i can totally understand someone with an overly developed sense of fashion (hello, i worked in womens' retail for years!) wanting another person with *also* an overly developed sense of fashion.... but you (in my world) don't get to dress like a schlub (EZ's word) and talk to me about stockings, heels and pencil skirts (not that he'd know what a pencil skirt was). that sooooo doesn't work for me. i am the type of person to point that all out (when my more subtle methods haven't worked, of course).

[evolveme]

Mm. Well.

I thought "high" and "low" femme were merely reflective of altered and mood states.

[SuperFemme]

I scare the Arwen? I am pretty sure my perception is not skewed about you Arwen. You are the epitome of Strong/Hot/Femme to me. You don't take shit, you speak your mind and you do it all while looking gorgeous. Jeans and a t-shirt look as alluring on you as a ball gown. You shine from the inside out.

Remember Vegas Arwen? You danced the entire night at the Ball and I sat in a chair with nobody willing to approach me, talk to me, or ask me to dance. You came over twitterpated and told me you felt like the Bell of the Ball. It was transformative for you. I told you that i felt i-n-v-i-s-i-b-l-e. You were shocked.

I was not. I am used to it. I don't make effort to "perform" Femme. I really am just me all of the time. My world view doesn't measure girliness in others, but rather cerebral stimulation, kindness, empathy, and heart. All of which you carry very well. I'm not high. I'm not low. I don't see others as high or low in any kind of rating system or higherarchy (thanks ap).

I may or may not be confuzzled on how I could possibly scare you. Pet my head please.

[Arwen]

I so want to borrow your mirror to look at myself in. I do remember dancing that night away and feeling like a Belle of the Ball. It was transformative to me (And that cute Katanaboi helped, lol).

When you and I went shopping...I felt like this ignoramus. I had no clue what Sephora was. I was so sure you would see through me and realize I was just a pretend femme.

: pats your pretty head: I love you and have learned a lot from you about being myself and not worrying about what others think I should be.

You are, whether you like it or not, one of my role models.

When I think of you (no I don't touch my elf), I think of what perserverance and self-honesty look like. I think of a beautiful woman who conquers adversity on a daily basis. I think of someone I want to be more like.

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I scare the Arwen? I am pretty sure my perception is not skewed about you Arwen. You are the epitome of Strong/Hot/Femme to me. You don't take shit, you speak your mind and you do it all while looking gorgeous. Jeans and a t-shirt look as alluring on you as a ball gown. You shine from the inside out.

Remember Vegas Arwen? You danced the entire night at the Ball and I sat in a chair with nobody willing to approach me, talk to me, or ask me to dance. You came over twitterpated and told me you felt like the Bell of the Ball. It was transformative for you. I told you that i felt i-n-v-i-s-i-b-l-e. You were shocked.

I was not. I am used to it. I don't make effort to "perform" Femme. I really am just me all of the time. My world view doesn't measure girliness in others, but rather cerebral stimulation, kindness, empathy, and heart. All of which you carry very well. I'm not high. I'm not low. I don't see others as high or low in any kind of rating system or higherarchy (thanks ap).

I may or may not be confuzzled on how I could possibly scare you. Pet my head please.

[SuperFemme]

Ha. The Sephora trip must have slipped into on of the holes in my Swiss Cheese Brain.

I think a *pretend femme* is a mythical creature. There is no blueprint to Femme.
I have NEVER in my life thought "Hmmm. Is she a *real femme*?". Rather, I love the diversity that envelopes Femme.

I'm not saying this to negate your experience Arwen. Rather as a reminder that we are all evolving creatures unique in our own right. The bracelet said it well.

[Words]

The exchange between you two is lovely. Lovely in itself, lovely because it just goes to show that femme - just femme - really is enough.

High femme, low femme, sporty femme, remotecontrolhuggerfemme, it honestly doesn't matter, what matters is the 'F' word because it's that word, that essence, that unites us and that sets us apart from others.

Words

[cara]

Right now I am wishing for a few close femme friends that live near me.

Thank goodness for butchfemmeplanet!

~cara

[blush]

Originally Posted by christie0918

Thank you for bringing this up!

It does feel like a ranking system to me. I have never understood it...

To me, I see "high femme" and I wonder what that person might be smoking! Is that like, "high as gas" or "high as Jesus"??

Its funny that I have never seen "low femme"...

I've never heard anyone self-identify as a low femme, but I've heard it as a discriptor for the opposite of high femme.

Originally Posted by InfiniteFemme

Blush.. I sarcastically have in my profile as my identity: Femme (neither high nor low). As I have heard these terms and have been asked, if I identify as a high femme or just a femme (lol). Are we talking maintenance here? Pretty much astounds me.

And what does high maintenance vs. low maintenance really mean? I am not a car for god sake! Though I do prefer rich dark roast coffee rather than maxwell house. Get's my engine purring!

Julie

I don't know if it refers to high maintenance? I've seen both. I think it depends on the femme?

Originally Posted by apretty

don't even get me started.

i am so overly done with the term *high* femme as if there's some HIGHerarcy of femme--if that's the case,
where are all the HIGH butches?

i recall this sort-of date i had, years ago with this not-extremely well put together (which i don't mind, but bare with me, i have a point), nor educated in the ways of "how you conduct yourself on a dinner with me" type-butch. it was summer, i was wearing a teal blouse, black capris and cute sandals (hello! date-appropriate femme-wear! duh!) well this misguided and khaki-shorts-wearing butch sat across from me at this *pizzeria* and began to compare *femme* --his preference for *high* femme (while i denounce the term) and what it means to be *high femme* and it all basically came down to the heels and stockings that this *other* lady-femme-person apparently *lived* in evening wear 24/7. really? to the grocery store? that's just stupid. i repeat, it's stupid to wear evening wear to the grocery store and it does NOT make you HIGH anything.

i mean what the holy fuck--well, next he informed me that i'm not a *natural* submissive--which, enthralled me, because (tongue-in-cheek, here) i am sure, like all of my good sister femmes, i too love being told "about me" by someone i don't know/didn't ask (and who i have zero intention of submitting to/for because frankly, it takes something a little more than a daddy 'title' to get me there. see: ) ok, and if i sound rude, NONE of these people are on this website and i have no ill will towards this person--really, he just was/is misguided in his attempt to define *femme* to me (and not expect that i'll take the opportunity to fuck with him). and the topper: when all is said and done, i am not being a HIGH or GOOD femme because i am extremely disagreeable. and frankly, i can be disagreeable a LOT of the time--it doesn't take from or add to my GENDER.

/end rant. and i blame my sister-femme, blush for getting me all riled on a sunday.

Did we go on the same date with the same butch?
Yeah, interestingly, I've "been told" that I'm high femme or low femme, depending on the butch. I've even argued the point, insisting I'm simply femme. That point was argued based on THEIR interpretation of me.

Can you IMAGINE the brewhaha that would ensue if femmes started telling butches/transguys who they "really" are?

Originally Posted by Arwen

For me, they don't. When someone id's as a "high" femme, I see, in my mind's eye, someone who likes to put on makeup and do the whole heels&hose drag.

I've never ever thought of it as a ranking or rating at all. I just see it as a qualifier of how much fussin' someone likes to do over their personal appearance.

But honestly, the only time I feel like there is a competition, for me, is how "girly" one can be. And it's a problem in my world to be seen as "not" girly enough.
But isn't that part of the perception of high femme? As the "ultimate" of girly?

That's more of a rating/ranking in my world than make-up and clothing (which is my sole identifier for high vs low femme.)

It's the simpering and giggling that get me because I don't personally get it. And, grin, I'm gonna say it outloud. It's the whole Daddy/girl thing played out in public. DO NOT GET IT AT ALL.

I get it as a personal, behind bedroom doors thing. I do not get it as a public play thing. And that's my hang up and it's my issue to deal with. I do not think others should modify their behaviour.

But that is what can also make me feel "not enough" because I am simply not willing to call someone "Daddy" and giggle and coo.

I rambled again. Blush, for what it's worth, you are one of the ones who can make me worry about my own femmeness. And it's not makeup or clothes or any of that. It is simply your own sweet self and your energy. I sometimes feel like a linebacker around women who are petite. Grin. So there you have it.

On my list of femmes who scare me....Blush and Puplove too. OH and femmes like Pinkielee who has the most amazing fashion sense. Shari goes in that category too as well as Adele.

So that's MY issue. It's my problem that I compare myself to others and sometimes find myself wanting.

That's not a butch issue. No butch is standing in the background saying, "Why can't you be more like MedusaIsadoraGemmeAnyoneOtherThanYou." That's my own low self-esteem sneaking up on me.
I hear where you're coming from on the comparing your femme self to other femmes. It feels patronizing to me to tell you "Oh, but YOU are an amazing femme!" You already know this about yourself.

And I am on a hunt to destroy that voice. But this thread is really helping me identify what I trigger it with. ooh Badger.

So, again, high vs low? Not so much. Arwen vs other femmes? Hideous ranking system where I used to always lose. I'm learning though. I am learning.

[julieisafemme]

High femme has confused me. I do know a high femme in real time. I was told by a butch that I was not a high femme and that she only likes high femmes and when I asked what that was or how do you know or something like that I was told well you just know and trust me you are not one.

I have no problem with someone who identifies that way. I don't think it is in any way a hierarchy coming from the femme. At least I have not experienced it that way It seems it is some kind of ranking from the butches. And then I internalize and compare and I somehow make myself come up lacking. So I guess what I am trying to say is that I am responsible for that.

Happy Hannukah and Chag Sameach to any Jewish femmes here. I love this cute emoticon here! Usually it is always Christmas stuff.

[Bit]

I have seen Femmes self-identify as Low Femme. It's been several years and maybe they might identify differently now, but at the time, they were saying things like, "I am the opposite of a High Femme; I wear comfortable shoes, jeans, no makeup," to explain the difference.

I've never known a different term for High Femme, but since it's a description of a "glamor girl" type Femme, I usually just say glamor girl.

It has been presented as a hierarchy for a long time and that's a major reason I have had trouble with the idea of being "Femme enough." When I was still fairly new in the community at the Dash site, there were multiple serious threads which proclaimed that one had to be a glamor girl in order to be successful at being Femme. That was before those of us who say "Femme is what we are, not what we wear" outnumbered those who said "Femme is what we wear and what we do."

I think our community has evolved a LOT over the past seven years, and our gender discussions have brought us all much farther along than we might ordinarily notice, without a conversation like this to jog our memories. There was a time that talking about the hierarchy between High and Low Femmes would merely have gotten a "yes, that's the way it should be" answer. I'm glad it doesn't happen like that anymore; I'm glad we're questioning the stereotypes.

I'm sorry that julieisafemme, blush, and apretty have run into such clueless Butches! Sheesh. Well... I suppose I have too, but on the other side of things, Butches who were unhappy that I chose to wear makeup or that I had long hair.... as if those choices were about BUTCHES?

Hello, MY face, MY hair, MY gender expression, MY choice.

[Lynn]

It's true, I've been told that I'm not a femme by someone (happened to be FtM) from the match site. I think the reason was that I expressed to him that I appreciate all women, not just butch women. Even though butch women are my preference for romantic or sexual partners.

But, whatever. It bugged me because I thought he was a jerk to offer his opinion. I was amazed (naively) that someone who had defied stereotypes, as he had, would be so quick to label and judge me. It didn't affect how I felt about myself, though. I can have low self-esteem without any help from anyone!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Lynn

It's true, I've been told that I'm not a femme by someone (happened to be FtM) from the match site. I think the reason was that I expressed to him that I appreciate all women, not just butch women. Even though butch women are my preference for romantic or sexual partners.

But, whatever. It bugged me because I thought he was a jerk to offer his opinion. I was amazed (naively) that someone who had defied stereotypes, as he had, would be so quick to label and judge me. It didn't affect how I felt about myself, though. I can have low self-esteem without any help from anyone!

Lynn, I feell ya... I had this butch once, tell me I was more butch than he, that my lack of skirts and lack of giggles made me as such.. My favorite I often get is, a good femme keeps quiet and is not so blunt.. I snap, I wanna grab that person by the throat and choke them... Right now I wanna scoop someone's eyes out with a lemon baller because the equate femme to *straight looking*

OY VEY

[Medusa]

I was once told by a Butch that they found the reading of my poetry at an event for another site "distasteful" because of my usage of the words "fuck" and "pussy". They found it "unladylike".

After I got through laughing, I asked the person what they thought of the act that was currently on stage, which happened to be a Butch doing a drag routine. The Butch on stage happened to be grinding their crotch on a person sitting in a chair at the time.

After the person said they "didnt see a problem with what the Butch was doing on stage because it was just 'the nature of a Butch'", I retorted something to the effect of "well pardon the fuck out of my unladylike self but I gotta piss"

Sure, I could have responded better but sometimes the misogyny in our community is overwhelming.

[Arwen]

Originally Posted by blush

But isn't that part of the perception of high femme? As the "ultimate" of girly?

Honestly? Not for me. High femme, to me, is ultra-sophisticated. She is the NYC kind of woman who is always put together. Girly is different. Girly, again for me, is a bit...a bit Donna Reed, maybe?

Poor Donna Reed...all she ever did was play a part.

Originally Posted by blush

I hear where you're coming from on the comparing your femme self to other femmes. It feels patronizing to me to tell you "Oh, but YOU are an amazing femme!" You already know this about yourself.

Heck honey, I know I'm amazing on my good days. But there are many days still when I fight that battle. And I think, smile, I think it's okay to patronize me in that way. Hee.

But seriously, I think sometimes I DO have a victim/poor-me that whines and wants to know that I'm liked. I've been doing some work on that voice of myself. It's not an authentic voice for me. I don't want to be rescued and when I put that energy out there, that's what happens.

So thank you.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Arwen

Honestly? Not for me. High femme, to me, is ultra-sophisticated. She is the NYC kind of woman who is always put together. Girly is different. Girly, again for me, is a bit...a bit Donna Reed, maybe?

Poor Donna Reed...all she ever did was play a part.

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Heck honey, I know I'm amazing on my good days. But there are many days still when I fight that battle. And I think, smile, I think it's okay to patronize me in that way. Hee.

But seriously, I think sometimes I DO have a victim/poor-me that whines and wants to know that I'm liked. I've been doing some work on that voice of myself. It's not an authentic voice for me. I don't want to be rescued and when I put that energy out there, that's what happens.

So thank you.
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

I hear you on the Donna Reed. I think what I meant was is "high" femme an aspiration we all secretly have? Do we perceive it to be the pinnacle of femme?

On the flip side of the high femme, I've also heard a lot of shit from femmes and trans/butches about high femmes. That they are stupid, "too much work," ALWAYS submissive, ALWAYS stone, and on and on...