Male ID butch vs. FTM??

[BullDog]

Well Thinker, it has felt silencing to me. Perhaps the topic can be discussed in another thread at another time. I did want to note though that absolutely no one here has said transmen experience life in the same exact way as other males.

Edit: I don't like the insinuation about me objecting to your physical changes. I don't object to anyone's physical changes. That is his or her personal decision.

[T D]

I can't say that I've experienced this male privilege yet as people are still waffling between she/he with me. It's so odd, I can go into one store and be called he or sir, then turn right around and go into a different store and be called she or ma'am. Now that I'm letting a little facial hair grow this will most likely change though.

It should be very interesting (to say the least) to experience the world differently from what I've been experiencing it for the past nearly 60 years. Since I feel like the same person I've always felt like I forget (for the most part) that how others experience me may change my privilege and/or position in the world at large. I personally don't think that this is going to be an easy adjustment, and I'm mostly stunned at how so many people think that my decision to start using "T" was easy and is about wanting privilege or something. This whole concept is completely foreign to me.

I really don't believe that anyone ever knows exactly what another person experiences internally. And what I find fascinating as all get out is how people will "speculate" on what something is "about" for others without even checking in with those others.

Just a few of my thoughts at the moment

[nycfem]

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but I wanted to add my belief that trans men/ FTMs/ men who join and participate on this site are already showing an identification with or sensitivity to feminist and queer issues. To further clarify, a man who wants to distance himself completely from the umbrella of queer culture (which, imo, includes heterosexually identified FTMs, lesbians, butches, femmes, etc.) would not join this site and engage so thoughtfully as I see happening within our community.

[Corkey]

Well, call me stunned. Thanks to Jack, Thinker, EZ Mr Bent WB and the rest who stood up to ignorance. Good thing I slept in, and had to shovel snow.
Back to the point.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

Perhaps this has already been mentioned, but I wanted to add my belief that trans men/ FTMs/ men who join and participate on this site are already showing an identification with or sensitivity to feminist and queer issues. To further clarify, a man who wants to distance himself completely from the umbrella of queer culture (which, imo, includes heterosexually identified FTMs, lesbians, butches, femmes, etc.) would not join this site and engage so thoughtfully as I see happening within our community.

Also, gender identity politics is an offshoot of Second Wave feminism.

[Melissa]

Originally Posted by BullDog

I did want to note though that absolutely no one here has said transmen experience life in the same exact way as other males.

.

Actually, Martina somewhat did. She was talking about bio men and trans men experiencing privilege in the same way. This is what started the discussion of privilege and why it is not a black and white issue, and how privilege is also effected by race, class, appearance etc among many other things. Martina states that all men have privilege and therefore must be aware of how they wield that privilege. She goes on to say that even if a man does not feel privileged he is and must be aware of it at all times. She did not differentiate between bio men and trans men.

Here is her quote "It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not. "

I have noticed a lot of antipathy toward transmen in this thread and on other threads. The privilege issue is brought up a lot. Then the silencing issue. I agree with Thinker that it becomes a Catch 22 and the silencing issue is brought up when a debate begins.

We can't debate and discuss if posters keep pulling out of the thread, get mad, or object by saying he or she feels silenced. For me, it has gotten to the point where I no longer know what it means when someone says they feel silenced. No one is stopping anyone from posting or stating their point of view or describing his or her personal experience. In fact, on this site, posters bend over backward to make sure members feel able to post, debate, and discuss and bring in personal experiences and points of view. But the silencing issue and the privilege issue does begin to feel, more and more to me, as a verbal weapon being wielded against trans posters. It puts them on the defensive.

For me, I learn through debate and discussion and testing my own experiences against those of others. So right now Bulldog, I am debating you, mentioning some things I think and have noticed, and generally putting my two cents worth in. This is not an attempt to shut you up but an attempt to counter, debate, discuss, offer an opinion and I hope you will take it as that.

My post was not written in anger or frustration but a genuine concern for gender, women's, and trans issues and a desire for more understanding about the issue of privilege. I think all these issues are interconnected in all of our lives regardless of how we identify in terms of sex, gender or sexuallity. You should know I am a lesbian and married to a transman. I identify as lesbian first and femme second. Because of my marital status and partner I'm sure there are many people who would deny my claim to being a lesbian.


Melissa

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Melissa

Actually, Martina somewhat did. She was talking about bio men and trans men experiencing privilege in the same way. This is what started the discussion of privilege and why it is not a black and white issue, and how privilege is also effected by race, class, appearance etc among many other things. Martina states that all men have privilege and therefore must be aware of how they wield that privilege. She goes on to say that even if a man does not feel privileged he is and must be aware of it at all times. She did not differentiate between bio men and trans men.

Here is her quote "It is a sexist world, and men are more paid attention to. They hold more power. An individual man may not feel powerful, but by virtue of being recognized as a man, he can do more harm than he might attend. i expect all men to be aware of this whether they feel the benefits of privilege or not. "

I have noticed a lot of antipathy toward transmen in this thread and on other threads. The privilege issue is brought up a lot. Then the silencing issue. I agree with Thinker that it becomes a Catch 22 and the silencing issue is brought up when a debate begins.

We can't debate and discuss if posters keep pulling out of the thread, get mad, or object by saying he or she feels silenced. For me, it has gotten to the point where I no longer know what it means when someone says they feel silenced. No one is stopping anyone from posting or stating their point of view or describing his or her personal experience. In fact, on this site, posters bend over backward to make sure members feel able to post, debate, and discuss and bring in personal experiences and points of view. But the silencing issue and the privilege issue does begin to feel, more and more to me, as a verbal weapon being wielded against trans posters. It puts them on the defensive.

For me, I learn through debate and discussion and testing my own experiences against those of others. So right now Bulldog, I am debating you, mentioning some things I think and have noticed, and generally putting my two cents worth in. This is not an attempt to shut you up but an attempt to counter, debate, discuss, offer an opinion and I hope you will take it as that.

My post was not written in anger or frustration but a genuine concern for gender, women's, and trans issues and a desire for more understanding about the issue of privilege. I think all these issues are interconnected in all of our lives regardless of how we identify in terms of sex, gender or sexuallity. You should know I am a lesbian and married to a transman. I identify as lesbian first and femme second. Because of my marital status and partner I'm sure there are many people who would deny my claim to being a lesbian.


Melissa

Martina's quote- if someone is recognized as a man they are in a privileged position and when in interactions with women they need to be aware of that. That is what I have interpreted Martina's statements to mean.

I don't know what that has to do with the fact that many men's individual lives are challenging- which could be due to being trans, race, class, etc.

That is not to say I don't think transmen shouldn't talk about the challenges they face.

Transmen can get fired from a job if their trans status gets discovered. Butch women may not get the job to begin with because when we show up for the interview we are not what people are expecting a woman to be. A femme woman may be offered less money for a job than a man would. A black man may not get a job that a white transman would. We all have challenges and all of our privileges are situational.

I am white. I have white privilege. That doesn't mean my life has been a bed of roses or hasn't been impacted by the fact that I am a woman and a lesbian. However, I don't feel the need to qualify any of those things when white privilege is discussed.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Martina's quote- if someone is recognized as a man they are in a privileged position and when in interactions with women they need to be aware of that. That is what I have interpreted Martina's statements to mean.

I don't know what that has to do with the fact that many men's individual lives are challenging- which could be due to being trans, race, class, etc.

That is not to say I don't think transmen shouldn't talk about the challenges they face.

Transmen can get fired from a job if their trans status gets discovered. Butch women may not get the job to begin with because when we show up for the interview we are not what people are expecting a woman to be. A femme woman may be offered less money for a job than a man would. A black man may not get a job that a white transman would. We all have challenges and all of our privileges are situational.

I am white. I have white privilege. That doesn't mean my life has been a bed of roses or hasn't been impacted by the fact that I am a woman and a lesbian. However, I don't feel the need to qualify any of those things when white privilege is discussed.

Bully the part I highlighted. It isn't a pissing contest. Not all FTM look like men, not all Butches look like men. People get discriminated against for a myriad of reasons, some because of their looks some because of who they are. Point being we all have to fight against the inequities every single day in what ever body we as humans occupy.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Bully the part I highlighted. It isn't a pissing contest. Not all FTM look like men, not all Butches look like men. People get discriminated against for a myriad of reasons, some because of their looks some because of who they are. Point being we all have to fight against the inequities every single day in what ever body we as humans occupy.

Yes, exactly Corkey. I agree.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by nycfembbw

my belief that trans men/ FTMs/ men who join and participate on this site are already showing an identification with or sensitivity to feminist and queer issues

This is nice. I never really thought to put it that way. And I certainly like this particular perspective over "why would a (trans)man even come to this site".

Thanks.