The Never-Ending Bathroom Debate

[Jess]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Ah see Snickles Grant only uses the mens room, when he "he has to" I usually call him honey so they at least know we're queer. His safety factor plays into how I react. Virginia has been the worse experience in our travels. I use gay mens restrooms but only if I am known at the establishment. Now... If I'm hanging out with butch buddies and they use the correct restrooms then I'm ok with saying

"hey back off it's a woman no different than you"

I've found women to converse more than guys and will listen in restroom situations.

I agree, women will prolly converse more than men in a public restroom. Too many assumptions of "tea-room" if men do anything more than nod in passing. They don't make small talk in bathrooms. Maybe it's the innate insecurity in women that they need to talk rather than just go "take care of business".. Maybe it's that same insecurity that makes them question "ANY"one who just needs to relieve themselves.

I mean really.. it's not like a destination, afterall.. it's literally a Piss-stop.

I've used men's rooms/ womens rooms/ unisex and honestly I hate having to use any. I like to piss at home in my bathroom where it's clean. Do not expect much of an apology when I am not visiting.. I am simply dumping and movin on. It ain't like we gotta be friends. LOL

[betenoire]

innate insecurity?

I get that I'm being off-topic now, but I just can't not.

Please don't say that women are innately insecure. It makes me feel icky. We're not born insecure. In the event that a woman -is- insecure, it's socialised.

I mean, really. Which chromosome is insecurity attached to?

(Maybe men are insecure. Maybe the reason that they don't talk in bathrooms is because they're worried that people will think they're trying to pick up.)

Now, as for women being more likely to question who is around them in a bathroom situation...you gotta admit that the condition of the world around us necessitates us needing to be aware of our environments for the sake of our own safety. Again, that's not innate. That's a direct response to how fucking dangerous being a woman can sometimes be.

[Turtle]

Yeah, so I don't like to derail threads AND

"Maybe it's the innate insecurity in women that they need to talk rather than just go "take care of business".. Maybe it's that same insecurity that makes them question " is just too WTF?

And then it kills the thread/discussion because - believe it or not - there are lots of people out here who don't like to "have words." So,

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Bathrooms - can be tricky and downright painful.

I've been in situations where transmen ID each other and one asks the other if there is a safer bathroom in the place and I'm told that most of the bathrooms in Alaska are "family" bathrooms.

Locker rooms in a club are a bigger problem. Maybe the "family" bathroom, with a changing table and specifically, more space would due for a private changing room, if there is an issue.

[Nat]

I remember walking into a small restroom (2 stalls) in a coffee house once where a masculine female-bodied person (don't want to guess at identity) was washing up, and I am both used to masculine-presenting female-bodied folks and and often attracted, so my first thought in those situations is not "OMG there's a rapist killer man in the bathroom." What I did notice was how this person tensed up on my entrance, and I was pretty sure why. I wished there was some way I could set this person at ease, but realized quickly the best I could do was just go into stall. I think I smiled, but this person's eyes were very studiously fixed on the faucet.

I don't remember who posted it, but it reminded me of one of the posts by a transman in another thread a while back - about the first time he realized a woman was afraid of him when he ran to catch an elevator.

I guess it's one of the sad things about femme invisibility that in a non-queer place, you can walk into a bathroom and unintentionally scare or stress out a person whom you would rather reassure.

[Admin]

Originally Posted by Jess

I agree, women will prolly converse more than men in a public restroom. Too many assumptions of "tea-room" if men do anything more than nod in passing. They don't make small talk in bathrooms. Maybe it's the innate insecurity in women that they need to talk rather than just go "take care of business".. Maybe it's that same insecurity that makes them question "ANY"one who just needs to relieve themselves.

I mean really.. it's not like a destination, afterall.. it's literally a Piss-stop.

I've used men's rooms/ womens rooms/ unisex and honestly I hate having to use any. I like to piss at home in my bathroom where it's clean. Do not expect much of an apology when I am not visiting.. I am simply dumping and movin on. It ain't like we gotta be friends. LOL

Jess,

This post was reported for sexist statements and is highly problematic on a site that is woman-positive. Sexist statements are against the TOS because we are trying to promote a positive environment for women, female-people, and allies.

Women are no more "innately" insecure than men, and statements like the above only serve to support gross and false stereotypes against women.


Thanks,
Admin

[BullDog]

I just finished re-reading the first few pages of this thread. Many of the incidents do appear to be more about mocking the person rather than genuine fear. However the genuine fear still exists and the threat of violence for women at the hands of men is very real.

This is a perfect example where women, butches (women/female, male) and trans women and men are all being subjected to sexism- sometimes reinforcing it, sometimes being made unwelcome or the victim or it, sometimes maybe both at the same time. Men may also go into protective mode to enforce it- there may be instances when it is a good thing for men to step up and others where it is not.

Women upholding the binary are not really doing themselves any favors- it just reinforces sexism for all of us and doesn't give women any more freedoms or higher status in a sexist world. I maintain that heterosexual women would experience more freedom if butch women were recognized as legitimate women, and that I would experience more freedom to be who I am if heterosexual women were not put into little boxes. Obviously there has been some progress here. It expands the possibilities for everyone. The same is true for other genders. It expands the possibilities of who someone can be and how they can express themselves and would take a lot of the burden away from having to reinforce gender in such confined and constrained ways. However when it comes to the bathroom issue this would also need to address violence against women as well as gender stereotypes.

The root of misogyny, homophobia and transphobia is sexism. The anxiety and uneasiness about those who don't fit neatly into the man/woman boxes can manifest itself in many ways. Some will be subjected to more unfair treatment depending on the situation, but there really are no "winners" here. That's why I say transphobia and homophobia will never be wiped out with sexism and misogyny still in place and women being second class citizens all over the world.

I still maintain masculine looking people do need to tread gently and smile when at all possible, but we certainly have the right to pee and be safe as well. I think holding your head high is also a good thing if it is safe to do so.

[Jess]

I sincerely did not intend for my statement to sound sexist. I am one of those folks who does "get it" that when I walk into a "ladies" room I am often not seen as someone who should be there.

I don't really believe women are innately insecure so that was a very poor choice of words. For that I apologize.

I don't know truly why folks can't just take a piss in whatever bathroom is available. I don't know why they even put signs on the doors. Seems like if a plane travelling for 16 plus hours can only have 2 toilets for 400 or so people can just have a sign for "occupied" or not, why can't all bathrooms?

I offer an apology and I do see where this might have sounded a sexism alarm. Sorry to derail the thread.

[Thinker]

Originally Posted by Jess

Seems like if a plane travelling for 16 plus hours can only have 2 toilets for 400 or so people can just have a sign for "occupied" or not, why can't all bathrooms?

I have wondered the same thing for a long, long time. They can even put a couple of sinks just outside between the two doors for people who are coming in solely to wash their hands. I do that quite a bit when pumping gas.

You walk up and see a little recessed area out of the way. Outside are 2-3 sinks. To the left is a door (similar to an airplane door) that holds a toilet and sink. To the right, the same.

Ta da....

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Thinker

I have wondered the same thing for a long, long time. They can even put a couple of sinks just outside between the two doors for people who are coming in solely to wash their hands. I do that quite a bit when pumping gas.

You walk up and see a little recessed area out of the way. Outside are 2-3 sinks. To the left is a door (similar to an airplane door) that holds a toilet and sink. To the right, the same.

Ta da....

I think this would be a good idea, and you really could make it work. I was thinking that it would be difficult because public washrooms are usually made as such to serve as many people as possible at once (large men's/women's washrooms with multiple stalls vs. one-person washrooms). But then I was thinking that if a more European model was put into place you could probably pull it off.

In Germany and Holland (probably the rest of western Europe as well) washroom stalls aren't like in Canada where there's a huge space under the door and big spaces in between the hinges/wall (always hated that). They're more like the stalls in airplanes where the unit is completely closed off so you can't see out/no one can see in. Completely private.

If you follow that model of stall instead of the typical North American stall which might invite voyeurs etc. there is nothing stopping from having washrooms out in the open without being closed off into male/female washrooms. Just have a series of entirely closed off stalls with an occupied/unoccupied sign like planes/trains without the group of stalls being hidden away in a separate room[s].

This isn't entirely unprecedented either. I did see some similar concepts in some German cities and in Holland: outdoor urinals. Basically, in the middle of a city square or whatnot there would be a cluster of outdoor, plastic urinals (urinals forming a triangular or similar cluster so that the backs of the urinals were facing each other, and walls on the side of each urinal more concealing than normal). This way people didn't need to go into a store or something to use the washroom. Also saw some dixies in town squares without male/female signs.

I really do think this could be done on a larger scale, and would make a lot more sense than hidden gender restricted washrooms. It would also be safer because would-be offenders would not have the luxury of hiding behind walls when entering the washroom of the opposite sex, because there would just be a row of single user dixie-like stalls.

[Linus]

Ender: I do agree but I have to toss a monkey wrench in it: I can pretty much guarantee that even if such washrooms existed here, someone will cry "But women could be raped!" and that would shut down such ideas. As long as the FUDing (Fear, Uncertainty, Doubt) discussions continue, I'd doubt we'd ever see truly gender neutral washrooms on a large scale here in the US. This nation is a nation of causing/propagating FUD. It's what drives so much of it.

And that is the sad part.

[morningstar55]

Originally Posted by Jess

.

I don't know truly why folks can't just take a piss in whatever bathroom is available. I don't know why they even put signs on the doors. Seems like if a plane travelling for 16 plus hours can only have 2 toilets for 400 or so people can just have a sign for "occupied" or not, why can't all bathrooms?

I offer an apology and I do see where this might have sounded a sexism alarm. Sorry to derail the thread.

cuz i for one ....... would never ever want to share a bathroom , coem out to wash my hands while a man is there holding his dick.. peeking..........
not to mention mens rooms...... always stink........ signs are needed.
now how ever ...... i think they should make more unisex bathrooms.... some wal marts and gas stations have them..... but only for 1 person at a time to use.
just my 2 cents

[morningstar55]

Originally Posted by morningstar55

cuz i for one ....... would never ever want to share a bathroom , coem out to wash my hands while a man is there holding his dick.. peeking..........
not to mention mens rooms...... always stink........ signs are needed.
now how ever ...... i think they should make more unisex bathrooms.... some wal marts and gas stations have them..... but only for 1 person at a time to use.
just my 2 cents

wow did i miss spell some stuff.. haha...... not on purpose i swear. lol
i know i meant to type peeing not peeking. geesh where'd that come from.. lol and come not coem..
ok
driving a truck and stoping at truck stops.. i tend to avoid truck stop buffets.. in fact , maybe shy away from all buffet type places.
i heard stories from other male drivers how they wont do the truck stop buffets cuz they have witness'd men in the mens room going to the bathroom , NOT washing hands then head to the buffets... well *barf* ..
that just makes me ill , thinking about it.

[dreadgeek]

In a couple of months, my company is moving down the street. Right now, we are the only people in the building and everyone knows me. There are two women's rooms on the first floor---one large and one small. If at all possible, I'll use the small one. When we move, we'll be in a building with another company, around people I don't know. Chances are we won't have our own bathroom and so it will be starting from square one.

All of the other women in the office know me and so they don't give me any grief, but now there will likely be another group of women that I don't work with and it'll start all over again. Needless to say, my enthusiasm for that circumstance is nonexistent.

Cheers
Aj