Japanese reactor crisis

[Linus]

I think the disparity in news is the effect of the internet. We probably won't know for sure until a day or two later. The reality is that news agencies are tripping over each other for the latest and "accurate" (I question how accurate since I don't think they are actually verifying). At the same time, I don't know even if Japanese officials know since the people who would know are doing what they are supposed to: try and contain this as best as they can.

I wonder if there will be a point where they will say "We cannot do anything more.."

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Linus

I think the disparity in news is the effect of the internet. We probably won't know for sure until a day or two later. The reality is that news agencies are tripping over each other for the latest and "accurate" (I question how accurate since I don't think they are actually verifying). At the same time, I don't know even if Japanese officials know since the people who would know are doing what they are supposed to: try and contain this as best as they can.

I wonder if there will be a point where they will say "We cannot do anything more.."

Good points! And I hope your last statement never happens! And lets face it, things like this get entangled with political motivations as well.

[Passionaria]

Thanks for taking the time to post this AJ! I appreciate info that I can actually understand. I too, have been very concerned. I am doing research on herbs and supplements that combat radiation poisoning. I will get back to all about what I find.....

Pashi

[dreadgeek]

So, I've subscribed to a couple of IAEA (International Atomic Energy Agency) news feeds for the duration of this event. I will post them here so there is a clearinghouse of the most recent information so as it becomes available, I'll try to stay on top of it and make sure that it gets here.

Japan Earthquake Update (15 March 2011, 14:10 UTC)

The IAEA Incident and Emergency Centre (IEC) continues to monitor the status of the nuclear power plants in Japan that were affected by the devastating earthquake and consequent tsunami.

All units at the Fukushima Daini, Onagawa, and Tokai nuclear power plants are in a safe and stable condition (i.e. cold shutdown).

The IAEA remains concerned over the status of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear power plant, where sea water injections to cool the reactors in Units 1, 2 and 3 are continuing. Attempts to return power to the entire Daiichi site are also continuing.

After explosions at both Units 1 and 3, the primary containment vessels of both Units are reported to be intact. However, the explosion that occurred at 04:25 UTC on 14 March at the Fukushima Daiichi Unit 2 may have affected the integrity of its primary containment vessel. All three explosions were due to an accumulation of hydrogen gas.

A fire at Unit 4 occurred on 14 March 23:54 UTC and lasted two hours. The IAEA is seeking clarification on the nature and consequences of the fire.

The IAEA continues to seek details about the status of all workers, reactors and spent fuel at the Fukushima Daiichi plant.

An evacuation of the population from the 20-kilometre zone around Fukushima Daiichi is in effect. The Japanese have advised that people within a 30-km radius shall take shelter indoors. Iodine tablets have been distributed to evacuation centres but no decision has yet been taken on their administration.

A 30-kilometre no-fly zone has been established around the Daiichi plant. Normal civil aviation beyond this zone remains uninterrupted. The Japan Coast Guard established evacuation warnings within 10 kilometres of Fukushima Daiichi and 3 kilometres of Fukushima Daini.

The IAEA and several other UN organizations held a meeting at 11:00 UTC today to discuss recent developments and coordinate activities related to consequences of the earthquake and tsunami. The meeting was called under the framework of the Joint Radiation Emergency Management Plan of the International Organizations, and this group expects to work closely together in the days ahead.

[Medusa]

You know, AJ, I was thinking about what you said about the people who are working at these plants while others evacuate. They really are heroes.

I read an article on Sunday that talked about how the "control room" for the first reactor had reached 200 degrees. I wasn't clear on what they mean by 'control room', if it is a room with lots of computers and people punching buttons (although I can't imagine a computer being functional at that heat) or if it's a different type of control room that is more mechanical.

Either way, it made me wonder about what conditions these people must be working in and how exhausted they must be. Definitely thinking of these folks today as they work diligently and possibly expose themselves to intense radiation in order to try to help all of us.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Linus

I think the disparity in news is the effect of the internet. We probably won't know for sure until a day or two later. The reality is that news agencies are tripping over each other for the latest and "accurate" (I question how accurate since I don't think they are actually verifying). At the same time, I don't know even if Japanese officials know since the people who would know are doing what they are supposed to: try and contain this as best as they can.

I wonder if there will be a point where they will say "We cannot do anything more.."

Yes, I'm not sure what that point will be but I'm willing to bet that at this point, there are folks on the ground who are saying "I don't think we can stop this thing".

I know that folks don't usually think of scientists and engineers as heroes. But I want to ask everyone to take a moment to think about this:

Right now, on site in Japan, there are people in control rooms working in what are now becoming very hot (radioactively not thermally) conditions. There are ways to deal with exposure: everyone is going to be wearing a dosimeter, everyone will be wearing a mask to keep particulates out of their lungs, they'll be wearing protective clothing. But these are people who are in a hazardous area, the hazard is silent, invisible, and pervasive. You can't dodge it, you can't see it, you can't outrun it, and you have to do a job under conditions at the limit of human cognitive ability, on a system that is already stressed beyond its design specification. These are folks who *know* how nasty radiation sickness can be. They know what those alpha particles are doing to their bodies. They know what Strontium and Cesium can do. Now, I don't know that this happened but any kind of *humane* employer would have said "we can't tell you to stay, so we're going to ask for volunteers". I suspect that everyone on site is there because they volunteered. Unless you are a cop, a firefighter or in the military your employer generally isn't going to ask you to do something that you *know* could get you killed.

The operators on site are heroes. We may not think of them as square-jawed action-figures, but right now everyone of them is being as much a hero as any firefighter.

Cheers
Aj

[Gayla]

I usually tend to take things on face value but right now, I'm sort of on the edge of completely freaking out about this whole thing. The PM is going on TV and telling people that radiation is leaking and I can't help but wonder how much worse it is than what they are saying.

In something I read earlier today, a professional something or another, someone who knows these types of things said, "Right now, I'd worry more about looking both ways when I cross the street than about radiation hitting the West Coast." (totally paraphrased that, but, yeah). I want to know if he's going to come back and tell us when it's time to start worrying? Logically, I know that this is very unlikely but I'm not thinking all that logically right now.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Yes, I'm not sure what that point will be but I'm willing to bet that at this point, there are folks on the ground who are saying "I don't think we can stop this thing".

I know that folks don't usually think of scientists and engineers as heroes. But I want to ask everyone to take a moment to think about this:

Right now, on site in Japan, there are people in control rooms working in what are now becoming very hot (radioactively not thermally) conditions. There are ways to deal with exposure: everyone is going to be wearing a dosimeter, everyone will be wearing a mask to keep particulates out of their lungs, they'll be wearing protective clothing. But these are people who are in a hazardous area, the hazard is silent, invisible, and pervasive. You can't dodge it, you can't see it, you can't outrun it, and you have to do a job under conditions at the limit of human cognitive ability, on a system that is already stressed beyond its design specification. These are folks who *know* how nasty radiation sickness can be. They know what those alpha particles are doing to their bodies. They know what Strontium and Cesium can do. Now, I don't know that this happened but any kind of *humane* employer would have said "we can't tell you to stay, so we're going to ask for volunteers". I suspect that everyone on site is there because they volunteered. Unless you are a cop, a firefighter or in the military your employer generally isn't going to ask you to do something that you *know* could get you killed.

The operators on site are heroes. We may not think of them as square-jawed action-figures, but right now everyone of them is being as much a hero as any firefighter.

Cheers
Aj

I think you might about those really on "the fronts lines" of this are in volunteer status and for me, it is not a stretch to attach "hero" to them.

There are quite a few heros in fields of science - those that developed life saving medicines and surgical procedures would stand out for me. Many others, too.

[Linus]

Article similar to what AJ said but with picture (for those of us who are visually inclined)

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...lear-questions

[Camo Eagle]

Like the OP stated, Im not a Nuclear Eng. either. However, Ive taught Military & Civilian NBC (Nuc, Bio, Chem) threat, & response for yrs., and an qual in a few medical specialties. I hope I can add a few helpful items.

According to Mil response plan mtgs., (NOT Classified info), using current prevailing winds, currents, directions, and time of yr, it would take approx 3 days for a med/lg radiation release to reach the west coast. The above has been calculated showing the greatest concentration would be to N CA, OR, WA, and Alaska. This can change if the above factors change, and is recalculated daily.

Sadly, there is little you can do to plan as an individual. Not many people can go under ground, live behind concrete, or with no out side air vent source.

The main preventative for this kind of a radiological event is to take Potassium Iodide Pills. You can get these w/o a prescription.
In the event that the radiation reaches the US, affected areas will tap the Nat'l Stockpile of response drugs, and the areas will most likely be distributing the pills.

It offers some protection but not 100%, and is dependent on the dose you rec. The thyroid absorbs most of the radiation then becomes cancerous. The KI works by protecting the thyroid gland.


Curent studies on this crisis show that lg amts reaching US is unlikely at this time. Over the next 10 yrs there will likely be an increase in cancer in the affected states.


www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

www.nrc.gov

[Medusa]

Jack and I ordered a huge bottle of Potassium Iodide pills about 2 years ago (their expiration date is 2019) because we're crazy paranoid survivalists/preppers and think the end of the world will happen one day.

Just fyi: I looked online yesterday at multiple sites that normally carry these pills and almost all of them were out of stock. Not suprisring but rather alarming since I suspect there will be a large number of people trying to get these pills.

For those of you in the PNW and other areas who are so inclined to look for these pills, Source Naturals (an herbal supplement brand) makes these as well and you might be able to find them at random nutrition shops.

Now, would it do anything at all to cover windows/doors and vents with any material if radiation does start making its way across the ocean? Sheets of plastic? Wood? Sheet metal?

Jack is looking for a diagram right now that shows a visual of what insulates and how much against radiation. Will post in a bit.

[Medusa]

These are some figures that talk about how much of a material you would need to insulate against radiation in case of a nuclear attack. Not sure if this is the same type of radiation as would leak from the reactors (and probably not because a blast is much more aggressive than a leak)

This is for a blast, and not a leak. I think that radiation carried on a jet stream would probably act much differently than a blast (a blast acting with force versus carried radiation floating on the wind)

But just to give an idea:

Steel: 21 cm (0.7 feet)
Rock: 70-100 cm (2-3 ft)
Concrete: 66 cm (2.2 ft)
Wood: 2.6 m (8.8 ft)
Soil: 1 m (3.3 ft)
Ice: 2 m (6.6 ft)
Snow: 6 m (20-22 ft)

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Camo Eagle

Like the OP stated, Im not a Nuclear Eng. either. However, Ive taught Military & Civilian NBC (Nuc, Bio, Chem) threat, & response for yrs., and an qual in a few medical specialties. I hope I can add a few helpful items.

According to Mil response plan mtgs., (NOT Classified info), using current prevailing winds, currents, directions, and time of yr, it would take approx 3 days for a med/lg radiation release to reach the west coast. The above has been calculated showing the greatest concentration would be to N CA, OR, WA, and Alaska. This can change if the above factors change, and is recalculated daily.

Sadly, there is little you can do to plan as an individual. Not many people can go under ground, live behind concrete, or with no out side air vent source.

The main preventative for this kind of a radiological event is to take Potassium Iodide Pills. You can get these w/o a prescription.
In the event that the radiation reaches the US, affected areas will tap the Nat'l Stockpile of response drugs, and the areas will most likely be distributing the pills.

It offers some protection but not 100%, and is dependent on the dose you rec. The thyroid absorbs most of the radiation then becomes cancerous. The KI works by protecting the thyroid gland.


Curent studies on this crisis show that lg amts reaching US is unlikely at this time. Over the next 10 yrs there will likely be an increase in cancer in the affected states.


www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

www.nrc.gov

Thank you! My NBC training is 25 years out of date (when did I get so OLD?) so I appreciate this.

One thing I want to add. The Iodine isotope to be concerned about can *only* get to your thyroid through ingestion of food stuffs that are contaminated--in specific this means do NOT drink the milk of cows exposed to the radiation. So IF we have a truly worst-case scenario--and it is unclear, at the time of this writing, whether we will--one would probably want to stock up on milk products but I would *not* suggest a run on your local Fred Meyers or Safeway at this point.

A whole cascade of things would still have to go wrong before we started to see levels of radiation, wafting across the Pacific, that would give us concern. At present, that cascade has not happened--which is not to say it won't.

Medusa, I'm still trying to find some numbers that I can crunch to answer your question about whether we can predict how hot this plant is going to get. Even IF one of the cores melts down, that still doesn't mean that the absolute worst is going to happen because the floor of the containment vessel is designed to--hopefully--contain the radioactive slag.

Cheers
Aj

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Camo Eagle

Like the OP stated, Im not a Nuclear Eng. either. However, Ive taught Military & Civilian NBC (Nuc, Bio, Chem) threat, & response for yrs., and an qual in a few medical specialties. I hope I can add a few helpful items.

According to Mil response plan mtgs., (NOT Classified info), using current prevailing winds, currents, directions, and time of yr, it would take approx 3 days for a med/lg radiation release to reach the west coast. The above has been calculated showing the greatest concentration would be to N CA, OR, WA, and Alaska. This can change if the above factors change, and is recalculated daily.

Sadly, there is little you can do to plan as an individual. Not many people can go under ground, live behind concrete, or with no out side air vent source.

The main preventative for this kind of a radiological event is to take Potassium Iodide Pills. You can get these w/o a prescription.
In the event that the radiation reaches the US, affected areas will tap the Nat'l Stockpile of response drugs, and the areas will most likely be distributing the pills.

It offers some protection but not 100%, and is dependent on the dose you rec. The thyroid absorbs most of the radiation then becomes cancerous. The KI works by protecting the thyroid gland.


Curent studies on this crisis show that lg amts reaching US is unlikely at this time. Over the next 10 yrs there will likely be an increase in cancer in the affected states.


www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

www.nrc.gov

I'm assuming it's not going to just skip British Columbia.

Thanks for this info.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by suebee

I'm assuming it's not going to just skip British Columbia.

Thanks for this info.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...ffects-110314/