Japanese reactor crisis

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Yes, I'm not sure what that point will be but I'm willing to bet that at this point, there are folks on the ground who are saying "I don't think we can stop this thing".

I know that folks don't usually think of scientists and engineers as heroes. But I want to ask everyone to take a moment to think about this:

Right now, on site in Japan, there are people in control rooms working in what are now becoming very hot (radioactively not thermally) conditions. There are ways to deal with exposure: everyone is going to be wearing a dosimeter, everyone will be wearing a mask to keep particulates out of their lungs, they'll be wearing protective clothing. But these are people who are in a hazardous area, the hazard is silent, invisible, and pervasive. You can't dodge it, you can't see it, you can't outrun it, and you have to do a job under conditions at the limit of human cognitive ability, on a system that is already stressed beyond its design specification. These are folks who *know* how nasty radiation sickness can be. They know what those alpha particles are doing to their bodies. They know what Strontium and Cesium can do. Now, I don't know that this happened but any kind of *humane* employer would have said "we can't tell you to stay, so we're going to ask for volunteers". I suspect that everyone on site is there because they volunteered. Unless you are a cop, a firefighter or in the military your employer generally isn't going to ask you to do something that you *know* could get you killed.

The operators on site are heroes. We may not think of them as square-jawed action-figures, but right now everyone of them is being as much a hero as any firefighter.

Cheers
Aj

I think you might about those really on "the fronts lines" of this are in volunteer status and for me, it is not a stretch to attach "hero" to them.

There are quite a few heros in fields of science - those that developed life saving medicines and surgical procedures would stand out for me. Many others, too.

[Linus]

Article similar to what AJ said but with picture (for those of us who are visually inclined)

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news...lear-questions

[Camo Eagle]

Like the OP stated, Im not a Nuclear Eng. either. However, Ive taught Military & Civilian NBC (Nuc, Bio, Chem) threat, & response for yrs., and an qual in a few medical specialties. I hope I can add a few helpful items.

According to Mil response plan mtgs., (NOT Classified info), using current prevailing winds, currents, directions, and time of yr, it would take approx 3 days for a med/lg radiation release to reach the west coast. The above has been calculated showing the greatest concentration would be to N CA, OR, WA, and Alaska. This can change if the above factors change, and is recalculated daily.

Sadly, there is little you can do to plan as an individual. Not many people can go under ground, live behind concrete, or with no out side air vent source.

The main preventative for this kind of a radiological event is to take Potassium Iodide Pills. You can get these w/o a prescription.
In the event that the radiation reaches the US, affected areas will tap the Nat'l Stockpile of response drugs, and the areas will most likely be distributing the pills.

It offers some protection but not 100%, and is dependent on the dose you rec. The thyroid absorbs most of the radiation then becomes cancerous. The KI works by protecting the thyroid gland.


Curent studies on this crisis show that lg amts reaching US is unlikely at this time. Over the next 10 yrs there will likely be an increase in cancer in the affected states.


www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

www.nrc.gov

[Medusa]

Jack and I ordered a huge bottle of Potassium Iodide pills about 2 years ago (their expiration date is 2019) because we're crazy paranoid survivalists/preppers and think the end of the world will happen one day.

Just fyi: I looked online yesterday at multiple sites that normally carry these pills and almost all of them were out of stock. Not suprisring but rather alarming since I suspect there will be a large number of people trying to get these pills.

For those of you in the PNW and other areas who are so inclined to look for these pills, Source Naturals (an herbal supplement brand) makes these as well and you might be able to find them at random nutrition shops.

Now, would it do anything at all to cover windows/doors and vents with any material if radiation does start making its way across the ocean? Sheets of plastic? Wood? Sheet metal?

Jack is looking for a diagram right now that shows a visual of what insulates and how much against radiation. Will post in a bit.

[Medusa]

These are some figures that talk about how much of a material you would need to insulate against radiation in case of a nuclear attack. Not sure if this is the same type of radiation as would leak from the reactors (and probably not because a blast is much more aggressive than a leak)

This is for a blast, and not a leak. I think that radiation carried on a jet stream would probably act much differently than a blast (a blast acting with force versus carried radiation floating on the wind)

But just to give an idea:

Steel: 21 cm (0.7 feet)
Rock: 70-100 cm (2-3 ft)
Concrete: 66 cm (2.2 ft)
Wood: 2.6 m (8.8 ft)
Soil: 1 m (3.3 ft)
Ice: 2 m (6.6 ft)
Snow: 6 m (20-22 ft)

[Medusa]

Levels of radiation rise in Tokyo and Vicinity:

http://e.nikkei.com/e/fr/tnks/Nni20110315D15JF919.htm

[Dude]

proper dosage?

it seems everything I read says something different.


the shit is selling out quite quickly
and I'd like to have some spare stuff to hook folks up on.
(worried fn hoarder)

plus my dog and duck ? 1/4 tabs was all I could find on dosage
for kids but for how long?

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Medusa

These are some figures that talk about how much of a material you would need to insulate against radiation in case of a nuclear attack. Not sure if this is the same type of radiation as would leak from the reactors (and probably not because a blast is much more aggressive than a leak)

This is for a blast, and not a leak. I think that radiation carried on a jet stream would probably act much differently than a blast (a blast acting with force versus carried radiation floating on the wind)

But just to give an idea:

Steel: 21 cm (0.7 feet)
Rock: 70-100 cm (2-3 ft)
Concrete: 66 cm (2.2 ft)
Wood: 2.6 m (8.8 ft)
Soil: 1 m (3.3 ft)
Ice: 2 m (6.6 ft)
Snow: 6 m (20-22 ft)

Actually, for the most part the radiation would be about the same. In oversimplifying things yesterday, I made one minor error which I'll now correct.

EARLY nuclear weapons were fission weapons--which split atoms into two (relatively easy) while later (H-bomb) weapons use fission which takes two smaller atoms and fuses them into one (a hydrogen bomb can be thought of as creating a very small, low-mass star in an instant). The actual radioactivity release is because a fast-fission reaction is used to compress a critical mass into a very small space, causing fusion to occur. But the bulk of the radiation is coming from the fission explosion, not the fusion explosion. (Fission is a 'dirty' process, fusion is a 'clean' process)

So for our purposes here, we can treat the radiation coming from a power plant to be the same kind of radiation coming from a bomb because the source is pretty much the same. I made this point yesterday and was correct but for the wrong reasons.

For the most part, unless there is a catastrophic release (and by this I mean the molten core eats through the containment vessel floor, goes into the ground and hits the water table at which point there would be an explosive release of steam which would blow a lot of dirt into the air), we will not see a lot of very hot material. The steam being released is not going to make it the distance across the Pacific to the West coast of the US without being severely diluted.

Also keep in mind that there is no radiation being released that you are not already exposed to in the course of a year. You aren't exposed to the isotopes--and this is why we should hope that there is no explosive release of steam caused by the slag hitting the water table--without a particulate material to adhere to because the isotopes are rather heavy and wouldn't travel very far from the site on their own. Everyone freaks out with the word radiation--and it's a scary word but this is important to keep in mind--

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Camo Eagle

Like the OP stated, Im not a Nuclear Eng. either. However, Ive taught Military & Civilian NBC (Nuc, Bio, Chem) threat, & response for yrs., and an qual in a few medical specialties. I hope I can add a few helpful items.

According to Mil response plan mtgs., (NOT Classified info), using current prevailing winds, currents, directions, and time of yr, it would take approx 3 days for a med/lg radiation release to reach the west coast. The above has been calculated showing the greatest concentration would be to N CA, OR, WA, and Alaska. This can change if the above factors change, and is recalculated daily.

Sadly, there is little you can do to plan as an individual. Not many people can go under ground, live behind concrete, or with no out side air vent source.

The main preventative for this kind of a radiological event is to take Potassium Iodide Pills. You can get these w/o a prescription.
In the event that the radiation reaches the US, affected areas will tap the Nat'l Stockpile of response drugs, and the areas will most likely be distributing the pills.

It offers some protection but not 100%, and is dependent on the dose you rec. The thyroid absorbs most of the radiation then becomes cancerous. The KI works by protecting the thyroid gland.


Curent studies on this crisis show that lg amts reaching US is unlikely at this time. Over the next 10 yrs there will likely be an increase in cancer in the affected states.


www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

www.nrc.gov

Thank you! My NBC training is 25 years out of date (when did I get so OLD?) so I appreciate this.

One thing I want to add. The Iodine isotope to be concerned about can *only* get to your thyroid through ingestion of food stuffs that are contaminated--in specific this means do NOT drink the milk of cows exposed to the radiation. So IF we have a truly worst-case scenario--and it is unclear, at the time of this writing, whether we will--one would probably want to stock up on milk products but I would *not* suggest a run on your local Fred Meyers or Safeway at this point.

A whole cascade of things would still have to go wrong before we started to see levels of radiation, wafting across the Pacific, that would give us concern. At present, that cascade has not happened--which is not to say it won't.

Medusa, I'm still trying to find some numbers that I can crunch to answer your question about whether we can predict how hot this plant is going to get. Even IF one of the cores melts down, that still doesn't mean that the absolute worst is going to happen because the floor of the containment vessel is designed to--hopefully--contain the radioactive slag.

Cheers
Aj

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Camo Eagle

Like the OP stated, Im not a Nuclear Eng. either. However, Ive taught Military & Civilian NBC (Nuc, Bio, Chem) threat, & response for yrs., and an qual in a few medical specialties. I hope I can add a few helpful items.

According to Mil response plan mtgs., (NOT Classified info), using current prevailing winds, currents, directions, and time of yr, it would take approx 3 days for a med/lg radiation release to reach the west coast. The above has been calculated showing the greatest concentration would be to N CA, OR, WA, and Alaska. This can change if the above factors change, and is recalculated daily.

Sadly, there is little you can do to plan as an individual. Not many people can go under ground, live behind concrete, or with no out side air vent source.

The main preventative for this kind of a radiological event is to take Potassium Iodide Pills. You can get these w/o a prescription.
In the event that the radiation reaches the US, affected areas will tap the Nat'l Stockpile of response drugs, and the areas will most likely be distributing the pills.

It offers some protection but not 100%, and is dependent on the dose you rec. The thyroid absorbs most of the radiation then becomes cancerous. The KI works by protecting the thyroid gland.


Curent studies on this crisis show that lg amts reaching US is unlikely at this time. Over the next 10 yrs there will likely be an increase in cancer in the affected states.


www.bt.cdc.gov/radiation/ki.asp

www.nrc.gov

I'm assuming it's not going to just skip British Columbia.

Thanks for this info.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by suebee

I'm assuming it's not going to just skip British Columbia.

Thanks for this info.

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...ffects-110314/

[suebee]

Originally Posted by Linus

http://www.ctv.ca/CTVNews/TopStories...ffects-110314/

Seems to be a bit of a contradiction to what Camo Eagle's source said, wouldn't you think? However, the article you posted had as it's source a statement given on Sunday. Things have changed considerably since then.

[Linus]

Originally Posted by suebee

Seems to be a bit of a contradiction to what Camo Eagle's source said, wouldn't you think? However, the article you posted had as it's source a statement given on Sunday. Things have changed considerably since then.

I checked Health Canada but they didn't have any statement. And neither does BC Health:

http://www.gov.bc.ca/health/