Have you met or know a psychopath/sociopath?

[dark_crystal]

Originally Posted by adorable

http://www.cix.co.uk/~klockstone/teleg.htm


http://www.cassiopaea.com/cassiopaea/psychopath.htm


These are a couple of interesting things that I've discovered in researching personality disorders. Some people say "Oh, I have the craziest mother!" in almost a cute way. I say it because I mean it. The woman is dangerous.

She was diagnosed at one point, as we were kicked out of mandated family therapy with a team of psychiatrists at one of the best teaching hospitals in the state. The things that she has done in her life, to her family and still today are just so unbelievable that people tend to actually NOT believe it. For the first time in our lives, professionals have SEEMED to catch on and something might be done before she kills someone again ( kills someone again - I wish that wasn't true. But it is - she has killed once already.)

It's only by actually interacting with her for more than a week, that you realize you are dealing with someone who is an expert manipulator devoid of true emotion. If you are invested with her at any level, it's impossible not to sense that something is very wrong. She has no friends, can't hold a job and carries herself like royalty.

I think that when we think of psychopaths we think of Ted Bundy or other serial killers. We don't think of the people we work with, live with or meet on the street. They usually appear normal and the only way you can tell is by the path of destruction left in their wake. They are expert cons, who lie when it's easier to tell the truth. They use people to their gain and people who believe them, they consider foolish/gullible. They have the ability to even pass lie detector tests.

My brother and I have always known that she was this way. She has done things and gotten away with things that are both horrific and shocking. When it seems like "FINALLY" she is going to be locked away forever - poof - she seems to walk away unscathed.

One of the more bizarre characteristics of psychopath's is that things that would normally cause people great angst, like homelessness, a horrible life event, major disease, ect. doesn't come with the emotion that you would expect. They are only able to parrot the emotion they think they should feel, they don't actually feel it. So it doesn't effect them the way it would you or I.

And there is no treatment. They are incapable of looking at themselves and blame everyone else for their problems, arrests, difficulty or situation. There is no medication because there is no chemical imbalance. Some psychiatrists say they simply have no soul.

The statistics I'm reading claim that one in nine or ten is a psychopath. So it's likely that we know one (or ARE one lol but if you have the ability to question yourself (I have read) that almost certainly disqualifies you.) I know that how I was raised screwed me up for life - I have had to learn social skills that other people take for granted. I married a psychopath at 17 and divorced shortly thereafter. Even after years of therapy, I lived a "sane" relationship with someone who was unmedicated and bipolar for several years. Insanity can seem normal to me. I have to constantly watch and question myself in a way that others don't need to.

I wonder if anyone else has had the experience of living with or knowing someone who is a psychopath/sociopath? (most psychiatrists consider the terms interchangeable.) I wonder if there is way to ever actually protect ourselves or defend from such an invisible threat?

i do not know any officially diagnosed psycho- or sociopaths. I have my suspicions, though, about some of my past partners. I have obssessive compulsive personality disorder, conscientous subtype- and my mother and grandfather have it too (my therapist's theory), and severe self-doubt, guilt, shame, and fear of failure are family traditions: so i have always been like delicious candy for predators. I have been in two relationships with malignant narcissists/histrionics and i think they are on that spectrum...

[Rockinonahigh]

I know that when I was small things went along just fine,it started becomeing difficult as I got into my teens.lots of times ppl never saw what went on at home cause mom just didnt act anyway but what was considered normal,shure she got an attitude with others at times but the worst was at home.Her behavior was verbaly abusive and at times( more that I would like to admit) physicaly abusive,she was a controle freak,I mean its her way or the highway.As long as things went her way and whoever she wanted to boss around did what she said all went well.For instance.One time I went tp pick her up from work as I was geting off my job at the auction barn,all I had to do was park in the desinated spot of employee pick up then we went home.I never ever spoke to nor associated with the ppl she worked with,because I didnt have time to go home and shower before I picked her up she had a fit as we drove away about me being clean.SHe knew my job and there would be days like this,soon we got out of the parkeing lot she starting screaming at me about it all and didnt stop even we got home she ranted till she just wore out.It was always my fault or because I did things she thought was wrong,she has thrown ash trays,trophies,food,slaped me not to mention I was just the biggest freak flag in the world.Then the silen treatment would start..not a word to me for days and weeks on end,we lived in the same house,she wouldnt eat the food I cooked,or wear the laundry I washed.One day she told me not to park where ppl could see me..park out by the road I will walk to find u.One day I got up and just left I was gone for a fue days then went to get my stuff..what was left of it.I had taken my my youngest son with me...my oldest said he staying cause he knew he did no wrong in her eyes besides he was old enough to make his own choice.When she finaly baceim very sick and needed help no one would help..my youngest was in the Army the oldest had left home and nobody knew where he was.So I did what I needed to do as did my youngest son when he came home.Even tho we became friends of a sort..I often wonder how anyone caould be so hateful on one hand then be so goodthe other.Maybe its best I dont know just move on as I have..the good times were great but fue..I try to remember the good and let go of the not so good..better that way.

[Glenn]

My father was Mafioso. He worked with Al Capone's cousin Rocky Fichetti. The strange thing is, half my family were lawyers, doctors, funeral home owners, police officers, and the other half were mafioso. I can still see us all together for the holidays. My heart is in my throat and I am shaking as I type this. The things my father and my uncle have done, and the stories I heard were horrendous at the very least. They acted like the nicest people on Earth, never laid a hand on me. Ya know I really can't type anymorenow.. I should delete this..

[Nat]

This excerpt is from: "The Sociopath Next Door: The Ruthless vs. the Rest of Us" by Martha Stout Ph.D. (Broadway Books, New York, 2005, ISBN 0-7679-1581-X). Martha Stout is a clinical instructor at Harvard Medical School and elaborates on the tales of ruthlessness in everyday life based on her 25 years of practice as a specialist in the treatment of psychological trauma survivors.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Imagine - if you can - not having a conscience, none at all, no feelings of guilt or remorse no matter what you do, no limiting sense of concern of the well-being of strangers, friends, or even family members. Imagine no struggles with shame, not a single one in your whole life, no matter what kind of selfish, lazy, harmful, or immoral action you had taken. And pretend that the concept of responsibility is unknown to you, except as a burden others seem to accept without question, like gullible fools. Now add to this strange fantasy the ability to conceal from other people that your psychological makeup is radically different from theirs. Since everyone simply assumes that conscience is universal among human beings, hiding the fact that you are conscience-free is nearly effortless. You are not held back from any of your desires by guilt or shame, and you are never confronted by others for your cold-bloodedness. The ice water in your veins is so bizarre, so completely outside of their personal experience that they seldom even guess at your condition.

In other words, you are completely free of internal restraints, and your unhampered liberty to do just as you please, with no pangs of conscience, is conveniently invisible to the world. You can do anything at all, and still your strange advantage over the majority of people, who are kept in line by their consciences, will most likely remain undiscovered.

How will you live your life? What will you do with your huge and secret advantage, and with the corresponding handicap of other people (conscience)? The answer will depend largely on just what your desires happen to be, because people are not all the same. Even the profoundly unscrupulous are not all the same. Some people - whether they have a conscience or not - favor the ease of inertia, while others are filled with dreams and wild ambitions. Some human beings are brilliant and talented, some are dull-witted, and most, conscience or not, are somewhere in between. There are violent people and non-violent ones, individuals who are motivated by blood lust and those who have no such appetites.

Maybe you are someone who craves money and power, and though you have no vestige of conscience, you do have a magnificent IQ. You have the driving nature and the intellectual capacity to pursue tremendous wealth and influence, and you are in no way moved by the nagging voice of conscience that prevents other people from doing everything and anything they have to do to succeed. You choose business, politics, the law, banking or international development, or any of a broad array of other power professions, and you pursue your career with a cold passion that tolerates none of the usual moral or legal encumbrances. When it is expedient, you doctor the accounting and shred the evidence, you stab your employees and your clients (or your constituency) in the back, marry for money, tell lethal premeditated lies to people who trust you, attempt to ruin colleagues who are powerful or eloquent, and simply steamroll over groups who are dependent and voiceless. And all of this you do with the exquisite freedom that results from having no conscience whatsoever.

You become unimaginably, unassailably, and maybe even globally successful. Why not? With your big brain, and no conscience to rein in your schemes, you can do anything at all.

Or no - let us say you are not quite such a person. You are ambitious, yes, and in the name of success you are willing to do all manner of things that people with conscience would never consider, but you are not an intellectually gifted individual. Your intelligence is above average perhaps, and people think of you as smart, maybe even very smart. But you know in your heart of hearts that you do not have the cognitive wherewithal, or the creativity, to reach the careening heights of power you secretly dreams about, and this makes you resentful of the world at large, and envious of the people around you.

As this sort of person, you ensconce yourself in a niche, or maybe a series of niches, in which you can have some amount of control over small numbers of people. These situations satisfy a little of your desire for power, although you are chronically aggravated at not having more. It chafes to be so free of the ridiculous inner voices that inhibit others from achieving great power, without having enough talent to pursue the ultimate successes yourself. Sometimes you fall into sulky, rageful moods caused by a frustration that no one but you understands.

But you do enjoy jobs that afford you a certain undersupervised control over a few individuals or small groups, preferably people and groups who are relatively helpless or in some way vulnerable. You are a teacher or a psychotherapist, a divorce lawyer or a high school coach. Or maybe you are a consultant of some kind, a broker or a gallery owner or a human services director. Or maybe you do not have a paid position and are instead the president of your condominium association, or a volunteer hospital worker, or a parent. Whatever your job, you manipulate and bully the people who are under your thumb, as often and as outrageously as you can without getting fired or held accountable. You do this for its own sake, even when it serves no purpose except to give you a thrill. Making people jump means you have power - or this is the way you see it - and bullying provides you with an adrenaline rush. It is fun.

Maybe you cannot be a CEO of a multinational corporation, but you can frighten a few people, or cause them to scurry around like chickens, or steal from them, or - maybe, best of all - create situations that cause them to feel bad about themselves. And this is power, especially when the people you manipulate are superior to you in some way. Most invigorating of all is to bring down people who are smarter or more accomplished than you, or perhaps classier, more attractive or popular or morally admirable. This is not only good fun; it is existential vengeance. And without a conscience, it is amazingly easy to do. You quietly lie to the boss or to the boss's boss, cry some crocodile tears, or sabotage a coworker's project, or gaslight a patient (or child), bait people with promises, or provide a little misinformation that will never be traced back to you.

Or now let us say you are a person who has a proclivity for violence or for seeing violence done. You simply murder your coworker, or have her murdered - or your boss, or your ex-spouse, or your wealthy lover's spouse, or anyone else who bothers you. You have to be careful, because if you slip up, you may be caught and punished by the system. But you will never be confronted by your conscience, because you have no conscience. If you decide to kill, the only difficulties will be the external ones. Nothing inside you will ever protest.

Provided you are not forcibly stopped, you can do anything at all. If you are born at the right time, with some access to family fortune, and you have a special talent for whipping up other people's hatred and sense of deprivation, you can arrange to kill large numbers of unsuspecting people. With enough money, you can accomplish this from far away, and you can sit back safely and watch in satisfaction. In fact, terrorism (done from a distance) is the ideal occupation for a person who is possessed of blood lust and no conscience, because if you do it just right, you may be able to make a whole nation jump. And if that is not power, what is?

Or let us imagine the opposite extreme: You have no interest in power. To the contrary, you are the sort of person who really does not want much of anything. Your only real ambition is not to have to exert yourself to get by. You do not want to work like everyone else does. Without a conscience, you can nap or pursue your hobbies or watch television or just hang out somewhere all day long. Living a bit on the fringes, and with some handouts from relatives and friends, you can do this indefinitely. People may whisper to one another that you are an underachiever, or that you are depressed, a sad case, or, in contrast, if they get angry, they may grumble that you are lazy. When they get to know you better, and get really angry, they may scream at you and call you a loser, a bum. But it will never occur to them that you literally do not have a conscience, that in such a fundamental way, your very mind is not the same as theirs.

The panicked feeling of a guilty conscience never squeezes at your heart or wakes you in the night. Despite your lifestyle, you never feel irresponsible, neglectful or so much as embarrassed, although for the sake of appearances, sometimes you pretend that you do. For example, if you are a decent observer of people and what they react to, you may adopt a lifeless facial expression, say how ashamed of your life you are, and talk about how rotten you feel. This you do only because it is more convenient to have people think you are depressed than it is to have them shouting at you all the time, or insisting that you get a job.

You notice that people who do have a conscience feel guilty when they harangue someone they believe to be "depressed" or "troubled." As a matter of fact, to you further advantage, they often feel obliged to take care of such a person. If, despite your relative poverty, you can manage to get yourself into a sexual relationship with someone, this person - who does not suspect what you are really like - may feel particularly obligated. And since all you want is not to have to work, your financier does not have to be especially rich, just relatively conscience-bound.

I trust that imagining yourself as any of these people feels insane to you, because such people are insane, dangerously so. Insane but real - they even have a label. Many mental health professionals refer to the condition of little or no conscience as "anti-social personality disorder," a non-correctable disfigurement of character that is now thought to be present in about 4 percent of the population - that is to say, one in twenty-five people. This condition of missing conscience is called by other names, too, most often "sociopathy," or the somewhat more familiar term psychopathy. Guiltlessness was in fact the first personality disorder to be recognized by psychiatry, and terms that have been used at times over the past century include manie sans délire, psychopathic inferiority, moral insanity, and moral imbecility.

[Nat]

and from http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Profile of the Sociopath:

- Glibness and Superficial Charm

-Manipulative and Conning

They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

-Grandiose Sense of Self

Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

-Pathological Lying

Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

-Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt

A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

-Shallow Emotions

When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

-Incapacity for Love

-Need for Stimulation

Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

-Callousness/Lack of Empathy

Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

-Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature

Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

-Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency

Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

-Irresponsibility/Unreliability

Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

-Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity

Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

-Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle

Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

-Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility

Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

[Nat]

I've come into contact with a few where I've wondered. A family friend turned out to be one - he was a successful business man for many years and nobody questioned his character. But then he robbed a bank and was cool as a cucumber afterwards. He was sent to prison and when he got out, he drove down to Houston and shot a man to death, came home and asked his wife to wash off his bloody clothes.

But most sociopaths find more rewards in life by avoiding prison. Unless they happen to be *into* committing certain crimes. Their lives are determined by what they get a kick out of.

My best friend was taken in by one for 5 years, and she is a different person now than she was before. She kept trying to understand his behavior and make it make sense to her because he had painted this picture of a love that she really wanted - but it's not real. He's moved on to other victims now, and she's got her brain back, but it was educational to see. I didn't understand how bad it was at the time, because sociopaths make their victims look like the crazy ones. They themselves are like teflon usually.

It's not just that normal people have a conscience. It's that normal people believe things like, "well, there are two sides to every story, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle." But when one of the two people telling a story is a sociopath, the truth lies nowhere near the middle. And if the victim is calling a person a sociopath or relating to a third party the real goings on - they are likely to sound unbelievable because it just sounds so far-fetched. People don't want to believe that these folks are among us, but they are. Speaking out against them will often backfire, and so their victims learn to keep their mouths shut.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by Nat

I've come into contact with a few where I've wondered. A family friend turned out to be one - he was a successful business man for many years and nobody questioned his character. But then he robbed a bank and was cool as a cucumber afterwards. He was sent to prison and when he got out, he drove down to Houston and shot a man to death, came home and asked his wife to wash off his bloody clothes.

But most sociopaths find more rewards in life by avoiding prison. Unless they happen to be *into* committing certain crimes. Their lives are determined by what they get a kick out of.

My best friend was taken in by one for 5 years, and she is a different person now than she was before. She kept trying to understand his behavior and make it make sense to her because he had painted this picture of a love that she really wanted - but it's not real. He's moved on to other victims now, and she's got her brain back, but it was educational to see. I didn't understand how bad it was at the time, because sociopaths make their victims look like the crazy ones. They themselves are like teflon usually.

It's not just that normal people have a conscience. It's that normal people believe things like, "well, there are two sides to every story, and the truth lies somewhere in the middle." But when one of the two people telling a story is a sociopath, the truth lies nowhere near the middle. And if the victim is calling a person a sociopath or relating to a third party the real goings on - they are likely to sound unbelievable because it just sounds so far-fetched. People don't want to believe that these folks are among us, but they are. Speaking out against them will often backfire, and so their victims learn to keep their mouths shut.

Oh this is SO true! They do make their victims look like the crazy ones. They lie so easily and so cooly - even in the same breath that people assume they didn't mean it. It's human nature to trust people, it's kind of how society works. Without some level of trust it would be hard to function. If you couldn't trust that MOST people follow the rules of the road, or wouldn't break the law, or be able to believe that most people to "mean well" - it would be too dangerous and scary to walk outside. It's that trust that sociopath's exploit. They use it over and over (and sometimes even with the SAME people) - then because they have no moral sense - it doesn't phase them in the least if they get caught. They laugh it off like the person who caught them is making a big deal about nothing. Because they are so glib and good at acting, people actually question themselves and think maybe they are making a bigger deal out of it then they should. Regardless of what the sociopath is doing - which could be anything.

If they get caught stealing money from you, they are likely to say "Remember that money I let you borrow a while back? I needed it back desperately, so I grabbed it. I knew you wouldn't mind."
But, you say, you never borrowed any money from me!
"Oh," they say. "I did! I swear it was you. Just last year! I didn't want to bring it up and make you feel bad."
No, you insist, you didn't borrow money from them.
(The argument is now about whether you borrowed money, not the fact they were caught stealing from you red handed.)
"I SWEAR! You borrowed $300 just last year!," they seem 100% sure. When you again say that you didn't, they suddenly realize that it was someone else that borrowed the money and apologize for the now simple misunderstanding, promising to pay back the missing money with interest.

Which, of course, they never do. Because they don't deny stealing (they don't see it as stealing since they deserve it for whatever reason they've given themselves (even though they know you didn't borrow any money) they know that you will WANT to give them the benefit of the doubt that weren't stealing. So they give you an excuse for their behavior.
Next week it will be something else, and so on....forever, until they are out of your life.

They also consider themselves to be intellectually superior to other people. What they really are - are just schemers/cons who literally spend all day trying to stay five steps ahead of other people for the diabolical plots that no one but them would be insane enough to dream up anyway.

[Thinker]

Interesting material here.

We (mods and admin) want to remind everyone that with topics such as these, some posts can start to feel a little too familiar or personal. We certainly don't want that here.

Continue as you have been....keeping the information private and making sure you (general you) do not discuss people or relationships that others might assume relate to community members.

Thank you!

Thinker (moderator)

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Nat

and from http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Profile of the Sociopath:

- Glibness and Superficial Charm

-Manipulative and Conning

They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

-Grandiose Sense of Self

Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

-Pathological Lying

Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

-Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt

A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

-Shallow Emotions

When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

-Incapacity for Love

-Need for Stimulation

Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

-Callousness/Lack of Empathy

Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

-Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature

Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

-Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency

Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

-Irresponsibility/Unreliability

Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

-Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity

Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

-Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle

Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

-Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility

Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

This description gives great insight into politicians
and wall street types.

[AtLast]

Certainly have - both professionally and personally.

Very cunning, often quite charming and bright- which makes them all the more dangerous. And they are not just what forensic TV shows demonstrate- they are all around us in various forms as in personality disordered people on one axis of mental illness diagnosis.

[Quintease]

My ex. Told me she has a Psychology degree which she couldn't prove, was a fellow at an organisation which didn't have her listed, and went around telling people that her parents were very well off - I met them. Told me she was in the military.. I know people in the military and she wasn't. Told us she had been in close protection.. she doesn't even have a security license!
Said she'd been a trader in her 20's - not only does she not have any money, and I know how much traders earn, she tried to do online trading while we were together and failed miserably. She also claims to be strictly religious, yet seriously assaulted me while we were together and lied through her teeth to me and everyone I know. To be honest I'm not even sure she's gay. She was really inexperienced regarding lesbian sex and accidentally admitted to me at one point that she prefers blokes!

I'm still in shock that I dated her, she's not even attractive! But I was in a very dark place when we got together and she was very charming. Later I realised that she'd met most of her ex-partners and friends while they were going through some personal struggle. I supposed that way she can avoid difficult questions and suspicions. Luckily my friends had pegged her correctly from the beginning and were there to support me until I wised up.

I assume she's still out there, sleazing up to broken women and stealing mine and my friends stories as her own. I'm really sad that I dated her. I feel I wasted precious years of my life which I could have spent with someone more worthy.

[bkisbutchenuff]

Originally Posted by AtLast

Certainly have - both professionally and personally.

Very cunning, often quite charming and bright- which makes them all the more dangerous. And they are not just what forensic TV shows demonstrate- they are all around us in various forms as in personality disordered people on one axis of mental illness diagnosis.

yes...both professionally and personally....nicely stated AtLast.

[Nat]

Originally Posted by Kobi

This description gives great insight into politicians
and wall street types.

I know - the people I kept picturing as I was posting that were a few prominent politicians here in Texas.

But really - you never know what's going on on the insides of other people and maybe that's a blessing.

[Kenna]

Yes.....
One almost killed me in 1994, when I was very pregnant, by inflicting a bone jarring, knock-me-blind, rattle-my-teeth Traumatic Brain Injury (that put me in the hospital for 2 weeks) and repeatedly inflicting various other ways of causing great pain and mental torture that gave them great satisfaction. My oldest son and I still suffer from extreme PTSD and mental anguish.... my youngest son did not make it.

The other individuals (one of which I filed a Protection From Abuse Order against in early 2008/2009) that have been in/out of my life that I, as a health care professional, have thought are psychopaths/sociopaths will never compare to the first one...

Each one were "MASTER Manipulators"....

For all of them that have in one way or another been in my life...the words "no remorse", "no conscience", "pure evil" (in reference to the first one) and "are only sorry when they get caught" come to mind....

I know being affected by their actions, abuse, manipulations and lack of remorse has ruined my trust in general people and affected my ability to form healthy relationships without the PTSD in the background....

[Lizzy]

Originally Posted by Nat

and from http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Profile of the Sociopath:

- Glibness and Superficial Charm

-Manipulative and Conning

They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

-Grandiose Sense of Self

Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

-Pathological Lying

Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

-Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt

A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

-Shallow Emotions

When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

-Incapacity for Love

-Need for Stimulation

Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

-Callousness/Lack of Empathy

Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

-Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature

Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

-Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency

Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

-Irresponsibility/Unreliability

Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

-Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity

Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

-Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle

Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

-Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility

Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

WOW!!!SO MANY OF THESE THINGS RELATE TO THE PERSON I HAVE BEEN DATING ON AND OFF FOR ALL THESE YEARS!! I will say not all of the above information applies but a lot of it does and this information has given me so much to think about. My son was diagnosed with Bi-Polar disorder and I have been so focused on his well being I guess I have forgotten to look our for myself.Thank you for this post.

[Sassy]

I was married to madness for 7 years.
We're divorced now. (HappyDanceOMG!)
To this day our mutual friends and his family don't believe his the person I say he is -- no matter what I say, even when I try to tell them about the gun in my face and the blank look in his eyes. To them he is charming, witty, sociable, compassionate.
But I watched behind the scenes for almost a decade as he struggled to understand people and came up with intricate gestures/displays to put on in order to convince people he "cared"
He never accepts responsibility for his actions and is painfully passive aggressive. (I endured weeks of silent treatment for the smallest slights -- not loading the dishwasher "correctly"... really.)
He refuses to discuss his "feelings" -- these days I understand he just didn't have any to discuss -- or thoughts unless he thinks he will come off sounding intelligent and "win" the conversation.
He has no conscience. I've seen him lie and steal without blinking.
He disparaged every belief I held. (I'm pagan. We're all evidently pacifist suckers in his eyes.) Insulted every family member I loved. (My dieing grandfather? WTF?) And attempted to destroy every friendship I built. All the while putting on an amazing front to his friends and family, making himself look nearly heroic for all of the trials he endured "for the sake of our relationship."



If you find yourself on the crazy train I only have one piece of advice. Get off the train. You can't fix them. You can't save them. You can't even save the other passengers. Jump and run. Cut ties. Stop, drop and roll. Save yourself!

[AnnRkey]

Originally Posted by Nat

and from http://www.mcafee.cc/Bin/sb.html

Profile of the Sociopath:

- Glibness and Superficial Charm

-Manipulative and Conning

They never recognize the rights of others and see their self-serving behaviors as permissible. They appear to be charming, yet are covertly hostile and domineering, seeing their victim as merely an instrument to be used. They may dominate and humiliate their victims.

-Grandiose Sense of Self

Feels entitled to certain things as "their right."

-Pathological Lying

Has no problem lying coolly and easily and it is almost impossible for them to be truthful on a consistent basis. Can create, and get caught up in, a complex belief about their own powers and abilities. Extremely convincing and even able to pass lie detector tests.

-Lack of Remorse, Shame or Guilt

A deep seated rage, which is split off and repressed, is at their core. Does not see others around them as people, but only as targets and opportunities. Instead of friends, they have victims and accomplices who end up as victims. The end always justifies the means and they let nothing stand in their way.

-Shallow Emotions

When they show what seems to be warmth, joy, love and compassion it is more feigned than experienced and serves an ulterior motive. Outraged by insignificant matters, yet remaining unmoved and cold by what would upset a normal person. Since they are not genuine, neither are their promises.

-Incapacity for Love

-Need for Stimulation

Living on the edge. Verbal outbursts and physical punishments are normal. Promiscuity and gambling are common.

-Callousness/Lack of Empathy

Unable to empathize with the pain of their victims, having only contempt for others' feelings of distress and readily taking advantage of them.

-Poor Behavioral Controls/Impulsive Nature

Rage and abuse, alternating with small expressions of love and approval produce an addictive cycle for abuser and abused, as well as creating hopelessness in the victim. Believe they are all-powerful, all-knowing, entitled to every wish, no sense of personal boundaries, no concern for their impact on others.

-Early Behavior Problems/Juvenile Delinquency

Usually has a history of behavioral and academic difficulties, yet "gets by" by conning others. Problems in making and keeping friends; aberrant behaviors such as cruelty to people or animals, stealing, etc.

-Irresponsibility/Unreliability

Not concerned about wrecking others' lives and dreams. Oblivious or indifferent to the devastation they cause. Does not accept blame themselves, but blames others, even for acts they obviously committed.

-Promiscuous Sexual Behavior/Infidelity

Promiscuity, child sexual abuse, rape and sexual acting out of all sorts.

-Lack of Realistic Life Plan/Parasitic Lifestyle

Tends to move around a lot or makes all encompassing promises for the future, poor work ethic but exploits others effectively.

-Criminal or Entrepreneurial Versatility

Changes their image as needed to avoid prosecution. Changes life story readily.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Other Related Qualities:

Contemptuous of those who seek to understand them
Does not perceive that anything is wrong with them
Authoritarian
Secretive
Paranoid
Only rarely in difficulty with the law, but seeks out situations where their tyrannical behavior will be tolerated, condoned, or admired
Conventional appearance
Goal of enslavement of their victim(s)
Exercises despotic control over every aspect of the victim's life
Has an emotional need to justify their crimes and therefore needs their victim's affirmation (respect, gratitude and love)
Ultimate goal is the creation of a willing victim
Incapable of real human attachment to another
Unable to feel remorse or guilt
Extreme narcissism and grandiose
May state readily that their goal is to rule the world

(The above traits are based on the psychopathy checklists of H. Cleckley and R. Hare.)

WHoa! I think just almost totally describes my ex girlfriend of almost 6 years! Scary. Very scary.

[rustedrims]

A short update on my situation with my evil sister.As of yesterday I am finally done with a long year of unsupervised probation and 10 days of jail hanging over my head.She is no longer allowed to interact with the family.To my surprise she is staying away from all of us.I have seen her driving around town from time to time.My opinion she is to close.

I did stay "good" in my year of the probation and proved to the courts I am not a risk to the general public.Now I have to wait another year to get my record expunged.

My small victory I will take a year at a time.

[rustedrims]

Ya know I spent a night in jail because of my evil sister,well ok.It was a Friday night and we all like to do something on a Friday night.An experience I will never forget.It was very cold sleeping on a metal framed bed.The blanket was a very thin wool scratchy and smelled like ass even though it was clean.I am sure I slept no more than an hour of total time my eyes were closed.Didnt stay long enough to eat or take a shower.My older sister bailed me out the next morning.Very grateful for that!Ok I got over the jail thing in a few weeks.I lost a bucket full of money that can never be replaced.The last time I had a lawyer I was buying my house.Now I have another one for court dates.WTF!I do not like someone else in my money.I am having a hard time dealing with having a police record of something that I did not do!That is very hard for me to accept.I absolutely do not like or interact with adults that lie and have it being my sister doing this to me is unforgiveable and very hurtful.

Just having a hard time dealing with the money and the charge issue.Thought if I posted it might help to let go of some of it.i hope

thanks for reading

s