Pressurised to transition.

Chazz · 06-11-2011, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyson

Chazz, we have a difference of opinion. I do see my gender on a continum. I do not see Trans or Butch as more or less complex than one another. I think both offer challenges and freedom. I also think for some Butch and Transman can intersect, overlap. I do not believe the binary is the only gender model.

I agreed with you on the "Trans or Butch as not more or less complex than one another".

Where I see us diverging is on the continuum issue.

Butches are not transmen. Nor, are we "cisgendered" (i.e. someone whose gender identity agrees with their societally recognized sex). Butches do not adhere to a gender binary even within the lesbian and gay culture. Butches are uncisgendered. To be linguistically consistent, one would have to say we're cisbutch.

Like the term women (i.e. not men), the term "cisgender" is commonly held to mean, not "Trans". I won't go into the inappropriateness of defining any group by what they are not - it should be obvious. Besides, POC have long since made the case for not being described as "non-white" as have Feminists for females not being defined as "non-males".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyson

For me living all of my life as a Butch until very recently has been the same in many ways as my life as a Transman.

I get that. The inner contours of my life aren't all that different since I came into the fullness of my understanding of myself as a butch.

But, let's think about this continuum construct for a minute....

Butch isn't an a pre-"Trans" state for butches. Butch is the final destination. To speak of butch identity otherwise, is to (albeit inadvertently) create a horizontal hierarchy with "Trans" succeeding butch. People (you) may not intend to imply successionism or hierarchies, but placing butches and "Trans" on the same continuum does just that. It's how continua work.

Butch identity falls along a spectrum not a continuum. One butch isn't butcher than another.

I don't think butches and "Trans" follow the same trajectory. For instance, I don't think of myself as being in the wrong body. I think of myself as a butch in a butch body (cisbutch).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyson

I would not be honest if I did not state having the legal recognition of being a "male" did not change some things. I can get married and my marriage recognized by the US Federal Government. After 3 years on T, I still get "Mamn" frequently. I also get "Sir." That was also my reality before Top surgery and T.

Having legal rights and privileges that lesbians and gays don't have is hugely different.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greyson

Living my life as Butch was not role play for me. It was simply who I was, am. I think for me, I will always make a distinction between being a Transman and being a Cisgender man. For me, it is not the same.

Of course, there is a difference between a Transman and a Cisgender man. Just as there are differences between being gay, straight, bisexual, trans, non-trans, butch, femme.... But let's be consistent in acknowledging those differences.

I have no doubt you've been on a continuum. I take you at your word about that. However, I suspect it may have been a "Trans continuum" all along. Can that be ok? You with your continuum and me with my spectrum?

Converse · 06-11-2011, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chazz

I have no doubt you've been on a continuum. I take you at your word about that. However, I suspect it may have been a "Trans continuum" all along. Can that be ok? You with your continuum and me with my spectrum?

Yes, this rings true for me –when thoughts however fleeting crossed my mind about transitioning- it was never about the “next stage”, it was about becoming “other”.

And it is this, this understanding or lack of, that has always been the source of any external pressure – however well meaning. This “pressure” usually comes from within, not outside, of the community – and when I have felt it, I silently tell you “with all of your learning, your wanting to empathise and all of your awareness – if you still can not look at me and see Butch without thinking you are looking at someone who has not yet arrived, then you can not see me at all.”

BullDog · 06-11-2011, 09:21 PM

I am puzzled about the "not butch enough" being associated with transitioning since most who transition don't identify as butch.

Chazz · 06-12-2011, 12:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Converse

Yes, this rings true for me –when thoughts however fleeting crossed my mind about transitioning- it was never about the “next stage”, it was about becoming “other”.

Well said, Converse. For me, it's never been about the "next stage" or becoming "other". It's always been about being more accepting of my cisbutch self.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Converse

And it is this, this understanding or lack of, that has always been the source of any external pressure – however well meaning. This “pressure” usually comes from within, not outside, of the community – and when I have felt it, I silently tell you “with all of your learning, your wanting to empathise and all of your awareness – if you still can not look at me and see Butch without thinking you are looking at someone who has not yet arrived, then you can not see me at all.”

Butches are doubly pressured to be self-othering. First by dominant culture and its gender constructs, then by forces within the community with theirs.

Butches who succumb to this "othering the self/selfing the other", are doubly-colonized.

Damn, as if life wasn't hard enough.

Merlin · 06-12-2011, 06:55 AM

The not butch enough is between butches .. And what is said or more not said.

Transitioning isn't the natural progression for all butches.

AtLast · 06-13-2011, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Merlin

The not butch enough is between butches .. And what is said or more not said.

Transitioning isn't the natural progression for all butches.

No it isn't and I find this belief to be as harmful as many of the myths about trans and intergendered people. It is important for our entire community to dispell this myth along with transphobic beliefs.

Greyson · 06-17-2011, 12:51 PM

Chazz, your point about using the word "spectrum" was useful to me. Let me be very clear, I do not see transitioning as the next step for all butches, nor do I see it as an act of trying to be "more butch."

I am not trying to villify you for your beliefs. Butches have been villified throughout our history/herstory and I am sure many of us here have experienced this sort of targeted hate. I consciously try not to do the blame game here. The words I have spoken are based on my experience, reality. I do think that masculinity is not limited to sex, gender, genetics, orientation or testosterone.

I have tried to build bridges in our community in "real life" and here online. I have no desire to split the LGBTQ community into fighting factions. (I am not saying this is your goal. It is not mine.)

I hope this offers something to the discussion on this thread.

AtLast · 06-17-2011, 01:19 PM

Because all of the SF/Bay Area Pride events are brewing this time of year, I always wonder if I will see and feel a more inclusive and less divided LGBTIQ population. So many of the issues that are being brought out right here in this thread and need to be addressed witin the entire spectrum of queerdom as far as I am concerned.

I don't know (because I have no experience to compare) how large a part of Pride events outside of my geographic location demonstrate more alliance and coalition building for the good of all disenfranchised groups within queerdom. To be honest, although I am so near and join in the SF Pride activities, I am always saddened by the continued divisions between us all. It gets better each year- there is progress- but not nearly enough.

AtLast · 06-12-2011, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Converse

Yes, this rings true for me –when thoughts however fleeting crossed my mind about transitioning- it was never about the “next stage”, it was about becoming “other”.

And it is this, this understanding or lack of, that has always been the source of any external pressure – however well meaning. This “pressure” usually comes from within, not outside, of the community – and when I have felt it, I silently tell you “with all of your learning, your wanting to empathise and all of your awareness – if you still can not look at me and see Butch without thinking you are looking at someone who has not yet arrived, then you can not see me at all.”

Rings true for me too- although, transitioning has honestly never entered my mind. Thinking there is just something "wrong" with me as a female human began at a very young age.

The whole "next stage" belief system is what really bothers me. We have arrived and that battle within the context of a very homophobic and misogynist society has been rough.

No, we are not cis-gendered at all- if we were, then why are we so often called "freaks"?

These are the very reasons that it is really important for butches to be able to talk about our identity as butches outside of any trans viewpoints sometimes. I say sometimes because I recognize that other butches were are/were indeed continuum- but not all of us are. It is just erroneous to put all butches on that continuum. It hurts, is dismissive and simply erroneous- causing as much damage to butches as myth and outright bigotry hurts and dismisses transgendered people.

It gets really difficult to feel like I am walking on a tight rope if I try to talk about being butch as my true state of being as a finished human being. I know that historically, there has been (might still emerge, unfortunately) some awful transphobic attacks on our own trans members stemming back to the dash site. That hurts me too because this is my home also and there are countless Transmen here (and Tran masculine butches) that are my friends and just people I care about and respect and would never put their journey down. In fact, seeing them find their way and having some happiness feels good to me.

I (and many other butches) have spoken to the positive aspects of varying gender theories that are finally flowing within society and in our small population. There is freedom in gender theory that applies to butches as well as transgendered and intergendered folks. And femmes that love them- and butches. I just want to accept this gift and find some peace and happiness. Hurting each other is just not part of that peace.

Chazz · 06-13-2011, 12:05 AM

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