Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[dreadgeek]

SA:

I think that the way forward has two parts. One part is public--spaces being open to people. The other part is personal--people holding themselves accountable. As a community (and here I'm talking about the queer community) I think we've focused on the former at the detriment to the latter. What I would LIKE to see is that we put some emphasis on the former but that is going to require breaking the spell that we cast on ourselves perhaps a quarter century ago--one manifestation of that spell is this idea that if you are a member of an oppressed group, your moral slate is not just wiped clean but remains forever a tabula rosa. This cannot continue because *until* we break that spell there can be no accountability.

Regardless of one's gender identity one should not be given a free pass. I would go further than that, though--much further. One cannot use one's gender identity (or kink or sexual orientation or race or ethnicity or religion, etc.) as an excuse to abandon feminist ideas. This means that if, for instance, a trans-woman claims that she could never have had male privilege because she never identified as a boy, we call bullshit on it. Because, in fact, OTHER people identified her as a boy and treated her as such. She might have felt survivor's guilt (which is how I experienced it) but she still had the male privilege. It is her task, as a woman *becoming* a woman--and Simone Beauvoir wisely said "one is not born a woman one becomes one--to be vigilant about male privilege. In the same way, trans-men don't get a free pass either. If a trans-man behaves in a way that is sexist, that does not take women seriously or acts in a manner consistent with throwing his male privilege around it simply should not matter whether that person lived everyday before that very day as a woman. What matters is how that person behaves.

Does that mean we cannot understand context? No. It means that in this minefield, there are costs. If we are going to have a community that errs on the side of openness (and I think we should strive for that) then we as individuals are going to have to err on the side of accountability, self-reflection and taking the hard path when called for. What does that look like? It looks like trying to have consistent standards of what is and is not considered racist, sexist, homophobic, or any other form of bigotry we might care to mention. That means that we abandon this idea that when a trans-man behaves in a sexist manner it isn't really sexism because he's a transman. It means taking the words that the individual in question may have just uttered and putting it in the mouth of some heterosexual white male and then asking the question of how we would take it. IF, as I suspect we would in most cases, we would call that man out on his sexism then we call ALL men out for the same behavior. All men. All men includes trans-men.

Is that fair? Yes, as a matter of fact, it is fair. Is it respectful? Actually, yes, it is in fact MORE respectful than what we've been doing. It is taking trans-men at their word that they are men. When my son was growing up, I tried to explain to him what I meant by 'when you grow up, I want you to be a good man'. One of the components of that was self-reflection and being accountable. I look at my trans-brothers and if I love and support them, I will think that they should be accountable. Why? Because they are men and part of how we designate a man from a boy--at least in the black community--is whether or not he is accountable. The same applies to our trans-sisters and for the same reasons.

I am talking about a very different kind of community than what we've built so far. I don't think we need tear it all down and start from scratch but what we have been bequeathed by our foremothers and forefathers is kind of a fixer-upper of a community. It's pretty, the lawn could use some work, definitely needs some new paint, some roofing, electrical work and it probably wouldn't hurt if we stripped and redid the hardwood floors while we're at it. Heart mentioned a community based less on identity and more on shared values and goals. I think that is a stronger basis upon which to build community and while I'm sure it has pitfalls of its own, it will certainly avoid the pitfalls that have brought us to this place.

What are those values? What are those goals? That is the question we have to ask ourselves. Back when I first came out, I recognized a weakness in the queer community. At the time I thought I might either be wrong or I might not have understood. As an older woman now, I realize that my instinct was right. What is that weakness? We lack generational transmission of our values and goals. Growing up as a black child, I was immersed in a set of values, goals and expectations that were handed down to me by my parents who received them from their parents who received them from their parents before them. It was automatic and just happened in a very organic fashion. The queer community, because the vast majority of us come to it in or near adulthood, has not yet developed a mechanism for transmitting those values, goals, expectations and lessons from one generation to another. If we are a community--as opposed to merely a temporary conglomeration of identity groups--then part of what a community does is transmit that which has been learned and that which is necessary.

We have the potential to do this, but first we're going to have to unlearn much that we thought we knew. We will have to break the spell and in doing so, move forward.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I think I have a lot to learn from all of you here, there are plenty of people who have been fighting these battles long before me.

I still have trouble figuring out how to have a safe space for women while respecting everyone's gender identity. There MUST be a way to do it, but I'll be danged if I can figure it out. I think at the end of the day it will come down to sticking to your guns and repeating that it isn't about excluding, it's about making a safe space, and that the boundaries are there for protection. There will be other events that will not have as stringent of boundaries, but those that are strict should be respected instead of vilified.

Does that sound like othering? Is there a better way to go about delineating what is acceptable in a safe space without being exclusionary? Is there a good way to enforce rules about safe spaces without being vilified as a phobic person?


I think proud lesbians can coexist with proud transpeople. I am proud of my lesbian identity, but I am also proud to be a trans lover and trans ally. All of these things live together in me, so I cannot understand why I am struggling so much to find a way for them to coexist in our community as a whole.

[ScandalAndy]

AJ, I like where you're going with this and I agree with you. I want to find a way to turn this back toward the lesbian pride this thread was created for, too, since I consider that one of the values that, while I wasn't raised with it, has become something very important to me. Pride in who I am.

I have an overwhelming sense of right and wrong, and i get very prickly when that feels threatened or another person I interact with tells me it isn't functioning properly according to their beliefs. I want very much to hang on to the values I have, but I also want to be open to the re-examining the principles I built those values on.

I began identifying as bisexual as a way to shield myself from the brunt of the absue in high school, but along the way changed that to identifying as a lesbian. Now I choose to identify as queer, but I still want to hold on to my lesbian identity. Is that contradictory? I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

SA:

I think that the way forward has two parts. One part is public--spaces being open to people. The other part is personal--people holding themselves accountable. As a community (and here I'm talking about the queer community) I think we've focused on the former at the detriment to the latter. What I would LIKE to see is that we put some emphasis on the former but that is going to require breaking the spell that we cast on ourselves perhaps a quarter century ago--one manifestation of that spell is this idea that if you are a member of an oppressed group, your moral slate is not just wiped clean but remains forever a tabula rosa. This cannot continue because *until* we break that spell there can be no accountability.

Regardless of one's gender identity one should not be given a free pass. I would go further than that, though--much further. One cannot use one's gender identity (or kink or sexual orientation or race or ethnicity or religion, etc.) as an excuse to abandon feminist ideas. This means that if, for instance, a trans-woman claims that she could never have had male privilege because she never identified as a boy, we call bullshit on it. Because, in fact, OTHER people identified her as a boy and treated her as such. She might have felt survivor's guilt (which is how I experienced it) but she still had the male privilege. It is her task, as a woman *becoming* a woman--and Simone Beauvoir wisely said "one is not born a woman one becomes one--to be vigilant about male privilege. In the same way, trans-men don't get a free pass either. If a trans-man behaves in a way that is sexist, that does not take women seriously or acts in a manner consistent with throwing his male privilege around it simply should not matter whether that person lived everyday before that very day as a woman. What matters is how that person behaves.

Does that mean we cannot understand context? No. It means that in this minefield, there are costs. If we are going to have a community that errs on the side of openness (and I think we should strive for that) then we as individuals are going to have to err on the side of accountability, self-reflection and taking the hard path when called for. What does that look like? It looks like trying to have consistent standards of what is and is not considered racist, sexist, homophobic, or any other form of bigotry we might care to mention. That means that we abandon this idea that when a trans-man behaves in a sexist manner it isn't really sexism because he's a transman. It means taking the words that the individual in question may have just uttered and putting it in the mouth of some heterosexual white male and then asking the question of how we would take it. IF, as I suspect we would in most cases, we would call that man out on his sexism then we call ALL men out for the same behavior. All men. All men includes trans-men.

Is that fair? Yes, as a matter of fact, it is fair. Is it respectful? Actually, yes, it is in fact MORE respectful than what we've been doing. It is taking trans-men at their word that they are men. When my son was growing up, I tried to explain to him what I meant by 'when you grow up, I want you to be a good man'. One of the components of that was self-reflection and being accountable. I look at my trans-brothers and if I love and support them, I will think that they should be accountable. Why? Because they are men and part of how we designate a man from a boy--at least in the black community--is whether or not he is accountable. The same applies to our trans-sisters and for the same reasons.

I am talking about a very different kind of community than what we've built so far. I don't think we need tear it all down and start from scratch but what we have been bequeathed by our foremothers and forefathers is kind of a fixer-upper of a community. It's pretty, the lawn could use some work, definitely needs some new paint, some roofing, electrical work and it probably wouldn't hurt if we stripped and redid the hardwood floors while we're at it. Heart mentioned a community based less on identity and more on shared values and goals. I think that is a stronger basis upon which to build community and while I'm sure it has pitfalls of its own, it will certainly avoid the pitfalls that have brought us to this place.

What are those values? What are those goals? That is the question we have to ask ourselves. Back when I first came out, I recognized a weakness in the queer community. At the time I thought I might either be wrong or I might not have understood. As an older woman now, I realize that my instinct was right. What is that weakness? We lack generational transmission of our values and goals. Growing up as a black child, I was immersed in a set of values, goals and expectations that were handed down to me by my parents who received them from their parents who received them from their parents before them. It was automatic and just happened in a very organic fashion. The queer community, because the vast majority of us come to it in or near adulthood, has not yet developed a mechanism for transmitting those values, goals, expectations and lessons from one generation to another. If we are a community--as opposed to merely a temporary conglomeration of identity groups--then part of what a community does is transmit that which has been learned and that which is necessary.

We have the potential to do this, but first we're going to have to unlearn much that we thought we knew. We will have to break the spell and in doing so, move forward.

Cheers
Aj

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by June

I don't think it's contradictory at all. When we "out" ourselves as Femmes to co-workers, family and friends, we, or at least I do not say "I'm a Queer Femme" because most people in the heterosexual world don't have a clue what that means. Usually, it's more subtle than that, I make a reference to my partner, which leads them to the conclusion that I am a Lesbian. When you get right down to it, that's what I am. I am in a Lesbian relationship.

I am proud of many things in my life, being a mother is foremost followed by being able to create and maintain long-term relationships of both the friend and lover types. I am not necessarily "Proud" of being a Lesbian, it is simply, or perhaps intricately, part of who I am.

What I am proud of, is to be part of a community that has historically done a lot of the really hard work in building networks of Social Services aimed at making the lives of others better. Increasingly now, we are being joined by men who have been raised with a more evolved social consciousness. I see this as forward movement in the evolution of us as a Human Species, and not as interloping, as some do. It is better to work together, we get more done.

I have worked alongside some amazing, dynamic women over the course of my life. I have also been appalled at the behavior of some women in positions of leadership. Being a Lesbian does not automatically attach a halo to your noggin. We're all still bound by the personal narratives and lived experiences that make us operate in certain ways, both good and bad.

I do believe that women can make better, more compassionate leaders in general, even though it may take longer to achieve the desired goals because of the more thoughtful processes we tend to have. "How are you feeling about that?" - "How does it work for you?" more often than "We're doing it this way", although that also has its place in the process.

I keep reading fear from a few of you that I don't understand. If you are living your life as a Lesbian, however you define that, how can you be erased? How does someone else living their lives in the way they choose negate your own? What exactly is it you're fighting for?

I don't feel the need to carve my space out of anyone elses flesh. I am not threatened by anyone elses identity. (I spoke about one of my personal processes in the Gatekeeping thread).

With that said, I do understand that Butch Women are feeling under-represented and pushed aside by the false masculine hierarchy that is present in our community, but don't we share that struggle as Lesbians? Don't you see me and many, many others standing up to say "Woman/Female is not less than you bastards!" -- Okay, sometimes we're more subtle than that.

It feels sometimes that those of us whose idea of community is more inclusive ARE seen as traitors by some, as though we have abandoned our Lesbian and feminist roots and have actually become "Tools of the Patriarchy". I see this much differently. Just as I want to be accepted for all the facets of who I am, in order for me to be whole, I have to extend that to others. Everyone gets judged on their own merits as a human being first, their sexual orientation and gender are secondary to me.

June,

I have spent the better part of 2 hours trying to figure out why this post bothered me so much. I think I have it now tho I am not sure I can get my point across here.

You came into a discussion where folks are trying to, little by little, speak to the things which are problematic for us. And, it does have to be done little by little cuz we go forward a step and then have to address our right to have feelings and experiences and why we need to speak to them again and again and again.

It bothered me to see a post where you readily admit this isnt a problem for you, the abstract works in your reality, you have had both good and bad experiences with women in different capacities, and only apparently good ones with men "who were raised with a more evolved social consciousness."

I dont know what your intent was here but to me, this said, I am dismissing the concerns others have raised because it isnt my reality.

I have a hard time believing if a POC or a transperson came into a thread talking about difficult experiences they were encountering, that the response would be - well that isnt my experience. My experience is x,y,z and as a matter of fact I have had awesome experiences with white people who "were raised with a more evolved social consciousness".

Can you really picture yourself saying that to a POC? Do you really believe saying this to a POC is going to make them feel heard, understood, validated, and as an accepted member of this diverse community? If you wouldnt do this to a POC, why is it ok to do it to other women and lesbians? What message do you think this sends versus the message you meant to send? Or maybe this was the message you meant to send.

And after you got finished with telling us of your experiences and what works for you, and how you expect is should or could work for everyone else, THEN you ask questions? Felt to me like you were already saying , 'I have told you I am not buying this but I will give you the opportunity to convince me'. That really stung. Again, I doubt this is the approach that would be taken if it was a POC or a transperson. But, it is the approach you chose to take with women and lesbians.

You are asking good questions tho. We have begun to answer exactly what you asked. You hearing it or being open to hear it, is another matter altogether.

In another thread, the question was asked why is it when a woman says something, it will go unnoticed. But if a man comes along and says the exact same thing, there is a totally different response? Something to think about. And I believe the person who asked was Aj.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by June

Are you telling me that I am behaving in a masculine way here? That I am taking up too much space like a man will in womans space? What exactly is your point? I get that you don't want me here in this Lesbian space sharing my Lesbian ideas and thoughts because they make you uncomfortable, but I do not get that last paragraph at all.

June,

I wish I could respond to you. But your attitude, your anger, your rudeness made it difficult for me to read more than a line or 2 of your response.

I do not wish to waste my energy trying to respond to a continuous litany of yeah but, yeah but, yeah but.

Should you wish to have a different type of dialogue, I am always happy to discuss it with you. You know where to find me.

[Toughy]

wow........

a butch lesbian telling a femme lesbian she is angry rude and has an attitude...because her feminine lesbian experience is different from said butch's lesbian experience.....talks about that femme as if she is not a lesbian and questions her intent????

just wow

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by June

This is complete bullshit. You came at me insinuating I wasn't a good Lesbian and I wasn't participating with a good heart and managed to make several snarky, nasty digs at me and my character, and then I take the time to respond to you and you condescendingly dismiss me because I'm not worth your time?

You might as well have patted me on the head and told me not to be so hysterical.

Kobi -- You clearly have no problem dishing it out, but when a woman, in this case, a Femme (and yes, I think that's relative) gives it back to you, all of a sudden she loses all value. This type of behavior is evocative of what I was referring to back in my corporate days.

June,

With all due respect, to me, your response is bullshit.

I didnt come at you. You wrote something I found offensive and I told you how it made me feel, what it represented to me, and why I felt that way. That is being honest, above board, and straightforward. And, it was done, I think, without taking personal pot shots at you, June, the person.

And, now you apparently have the need to add a bunch of value judgements and assumptions to it in a pretty personally insulting way as to what I said or meant. That is your right to do so. But, lets not confuse what I said and how I said it with your current level of defensiveness because you didnt care for what I said or how what you did made me feel.

If you want to understand what people here have been trying to discuss and why, it requires listening. If you want to genuinely understand, I am happy to answer your questions.

I will not, however, be drawn into an unhealthy and counterproductive interaction with you. That is not communicating or having a dialogue. That is a sparring match.

You seem to think you have a great deal of "insight" into other people's behavior. Maybe you do, maybe you dont. But, to me, it would be helpful to perhaps putting a little more energy into looking at your own behavior.

If I was rude and disrespectful to you, your response would be understandable. I was neither.

[ScandalAndy]

This is going to sound naive, and for that i apologize but...


Why are we fighting?


I get that Kobi and June's ways of interpreting and assimilating the world around them are very different.

I am really confused. I tend to function much like June does where I do not want to establish my identity by destroying anyone else's. Sometimes that makes me come across as a bit "la-dee-da, let's accept everone" and flighty in my worldview. I also understand how that could be a little off-putting to Kobi, since her process is different and progresses using small steps with regular self-examination and settling into a new routine of thinking. (Kobi, please let me know if i misinterpreted, I promise i mean no offense by this, i'm just trying to make sure i understand) I think both these approaches are valid and I like to use some of each when tackling new things that I must adjust to.


Aren't we all working towards the mutual goal of sharing our own personal experiences and reinforcing our pride and support of each other? I think there is common ground here and I hope we can all find it. The tension and hurt and anger here is somewhat frightening to me since it seems to have exploded out like it's been bubbling under the surface for a while. I hope you all can help me understand why we are reacting with anger. That seems like it would push us further apart in the end...

[Admin]

Kobi and June -

You need to take this line of conversation private. This is not the Red Zone, unless you think this discussion needs to be moved there.


ETA: Clarifying that I mean the personal stuff and not the actual constructive part.

Thanks,
Admin

[DapperButch]

I loved your whole post, dreadgeek, especially the part about NO ONE being given a free pass on what we expect in terms of behavior. I do believe that this has been overlooked in our community.

Additionally, I think that you pointing out that it is actually BETTER for the person themselves to be held accountable, is an important point. Being held accountable is how we grow as individuals. How we grow our community into being a healthy place.

(nod to our mods here at the Planet)

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

SA:

The queer community, because the vast majority of us come to it in or near adulthood, has not yet developed a mechanism for transmitting those values, goals, expectations and lessons from one generation to another. If we are a community--as opposed to merely a temporary conglomeration of identity groups--then part of what a community does is transmit that which has been learned and that which is necessary.

Cheers
Aj

The above reminds of how "back in the day", butches and femmes would take on mentoring new members to the community. You hear about the "butch code", where one would not date a friend's ex-girlfriend, for example.

Although I believe that the mentoring of the "baby butches" happened more often by both butches and femmes, I do believe that this was true for some femmes in the community as well (I have read less about this, however).

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by DapperButch

I loved your whole post, dreadgeek, especially the part about NO ONE being given a free pass on what we expect in terms of behavior. I do believe that this has been overlooked in our community.

Additionally, I think that you pointing out that it is actually BETTER for the person themselves to be held accountable, is an important point. Being held accountable is how we grow as individuals. How we grow our community into being a healthy place.

(nod to our mods here at the Planet)



The above reminds of how "back in the day", butches and femmes would take on mentoring new members to the community. You hear about the "butch code", where one would not date a friend's ex-girlfriend, for example.

Although I believe that the mentoring of the "baby butches" happened more often by both butches and femmes, I do believe that this was true for some femmes in the community as well (I have read less about this, however).

This was what I was thinking of when I wrote that post. There was once a time when an older butch would feel comfortable taking a younger butch under her wing and saying "listen to me, young pup, you got the swagger, you got the attitude, you got the recognition nod down pat but there's more to being a butch than just that. I've been around the block so stick with me, kid, because someone has to give you this teaching and those of us in the life are the only ones who give enough of a damn about you to do it". I would like to see us return to that idea.

When I first came out, there was a group of women who had a D&D group that met every Friday. For three years, we got together, broke bread and rolled dice and generally geeked out. Those women taught me so much. When I needed a shoulder and advice, one of them was there for me. When I needed a kick in the ass, one of them was there for that as well. They routinely said things to me that would, today, have them excoriated for being ---ist or --phobic. Yet, that wasn't the place they were operating out of. They were operating out of a sense of love, tenderness and a sense that as older, wiser lesbians they had a responsibility to help me find my way in the world as an adult, queer woman.

To me, that WAS community and it was as strong a sense of community as I'd had sense leaving home.

Cheers
Aj

[ScandalAndy]

I read about these communities but haven't experienced one. While I was in college a group of butches who were seniors did attempt to recreate that by having Sunday potluck dinners and inviting all us young bucks over. Unfortunately they were all fighting over the same femme, who took me aside and patiently explained to me that while i looked great in drag, I wasn't actually a butch. It fell apart after a while because their libido got in the way of the drive for community, and i ended up just as lost and confused as when I got there, albeit with a new wardrobe.


Why don't these things exist anymore? Is this online community the only place where I can find something like that? Am I supposed to be mentoring the young queers? Who is going to mentor me? I have lots of questions!

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

This was what I was thinking of when I wrote that post. There was once a time when an older butch would feel comfortable taking a younger butch under her wing and saying "listen to me, young pup, you got the swagger, you got the attitude, you got the recognition nod down pat but there's more to being a butch than just that. I've been around the block so stick with me, kid, because someone has to give you this teaching and those of us in the life are the only ones who give enough of a damn about you to do it". I would like to see us return to that idea.

When I first came out, there was a group of women who had a D&D group that met every Friday. For three years, we got together, broke bread and rolled dice and generally geeked out. Those women taught me so much. When I needed a shoulder and advice, one of them was there for me. When I needed a kick in the ass, one of them was there for that as well. They routinely said things to me that would, today, have them excoriated for being ---ist or --phobic. Yet, that wasn't the place they were operating out of. They were operating out of a sense of love, tenderness and a sense that as older, wiser lesbians they had a responsibility to help me find my way in the world as an adult, queer woman.

To me, that WAS community and it was as strong a sense of community as I'd had sense leaving home.

Cheers
Aj

[BullDog]

I think we value individualism (with lack of accountability) over community far too much. It is all well in good to have freedom of expression to identify in way(s) that we feel suit us. However, the isms we face are value and institutionally based. The strength of feminism is the critique and deconstruction of these values and structural inequities. I am not sure some of the gender theories that seem to be in vogue now speak to this.

I can't stand being talked down to by men. I can't stand it when men take up too much space. I can't stand when men feel all knowing about women's experiences. This is what I face as a woman out in the world. I also feel that I face it here at times. I believe in listening to our youth, but I also believe in respecting one's elders and that years and years of life experience do account for something- particularly when it comes to being part of specific communities and social circles. When this happens to me in this community and I voice these frustrations I am charged with being transphobic and/or anti-youth. Where is the accountability for being a male in a predominantly female community? I take transmen seriously as men. I speak out time and time again against transphobia. When I do that I am praised and get lots of reps. When I speak out as a lesbian or butch woman the response is much more mixed or non existent.

I went to bed last night feeling that it isn't possible for me to speak as a butch woman without being accused of being transphobic and/or racist and not being willing to be part of the "big tent." I feel the message over and over again is that I must accommodate and be subsumed under the big tent all for a greater cause. My identity is no more important than any other, but I feel at times that we asked to sacrifice far more for the "greater good." It leaves me feeling frustrated and empty. Perhaps the solution, as some have said, is to get away from identity and back to values. It's just that I already feel I am being redefined on others' terms and being asked to go quietly into the night. Today I woke up feeling a bit better, so who knows.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

SA:

Regardless of one's gender identity one should not be given a free pass. I would go further than that, though--much further. One cannot use one's gender identity (or kink or sexual orientation or race or ethnicity or religion, etc.) as an excuse to abandon feminist ideas. This means that if, for instance, a trans-woman claims that she could never have had male privilege because she never identified as a boy, we call bullshit on it. Because, in fact, OTHER people identified her as a boy and treated her as such. She might have felt survivor's guilt (which is how I experienced it) but she still had the male privilege. It is her task, as a woman *becoming* a woman--and Simone Beauvoir wisely said "one is not born a woman one becomes one--to be vigilant about male privilege. In the same way, trans-men don't get a free pass either. If a trans-man behaves in a way that is sexist, that does not take women seriously or acts in a manner consistent with throwing his male privilege around it simply should not matter whether that person lived everyday before that very day as a woman. What matters is how that person behaves.

Does that mean we cannot understand context? No. It means that in this minefield, there are costs. If we are going to have a community that errs on the side of openness (and I think we should strive for that) then we as individuals are going to have to err on the side of accountability, self-reflection and taking the hard path when called for. What does that look like? It looks like trying to have consistent standards of what is and is not considered racist, sexist, homophobic, or any other form of bigotry we might care to mention. That means that we abandon this idea that when a trans-man behaves in a sexist manner it isn't really sexism because he's a transman. It means taking the words that the individual in question may have just uttered and putting it in the mouth of some heterosexual white male and then asking the question of how we would take it. IF, as I suspect we would in most cases, we would call that man out on his sexism then we call ALL men out for the same behavior. All men. All men includes trans-men.

Is that fair? Yes, as a matter of fact, it is fair. Is it respectful? Actually, yes, it is in fact MORE respectful than what we've been doing. It is taking trans-men at their word that they are men. When my son was growing up, I tried to explain to him what I meant by 'when you grow up, I want you to be a good man'. One of the components of that was self-reflection and being accountable. I look at my trans-brothers and if I love and support them, I will think that they should be accountable. Why? Because they are men and part of how we designate a man from a boy--at least in the black community--is whether or not he is accountable. The same applies to our trans-sisters and for the same reasons.

Cheers
Aj

I loved your entire post and hated to snip out any of it but did, so I could focus on what I wanted to post.
In my 20's I had the very good fortune of knowing long term, butch femme couples in their 40's and 50's who I very much looked up to. They had what I wanted and I paid attention. The Butch's were never sexist ( or frat boyish) in their behaviour and always treated their femme partners with respect.

Fast forward to online things that I have witnessed.
Butch's, Tg's ,Ftm's (and other id's I may have left out) behaving badly and being excused ,coddled and many times encouraged by femme's to continue
their sexist behaviour.

I remember seeing a post recently by an Ftm who denied having any male privilege and wonder how that computes in their mind. I chose to go off on my grumbly way and think about it rather than try to respond. Sometimes
it's exhausting to get involved in any of these gender community conversations. Accountability can also be exhausting on a daily basis and
maybe that's why some people choose to not delve too deeply..


I work with a transman who shared with me that the hr woman at work reported him for touching her in a way that made her feel uncomfortable.
He is a touchy guy and touched me prematurely as far as chums go too, so
she may very well have had a valid complaint that was not a personal beef at all about him being a transman.(but a man rubbing her shoulder and neck, much like he did mine)
If you are seen as male there is a lot of accountability that needs to go with that in this world.

Again, I thank you for your post ,AJ.

Off to work on my own fixer upper and try to make it feel
like mine again.