Butch/Femme Dynamic vs "Masculinity" and "Femininity"

[AtLast]

As a product of mid-20th-century heteronormative gender definitions and roles, I see great transcendence of the traditional binary. Getting here had nothing to do with the need to admonish traditional definitions of masculine or feminine or butch and femme at all. It had to do with expanding these definitions to meet the needs of more fluid concepts of gender and gender roles. Actually, androgyny was one of the first definitions (though an ancient term) taking on meaning in modern time promoting a more fluid way to see gender, and had a role in this transcendence (one role, there are many more). And also uncovering the bio-physiological bases of gender that frankly, we did not have the tools to do this earlier as well as the social gumption to do so based upon a status quo accepted at the time which was based in a dominant patriarchy.

Masculine and feminine for me no longer represent what they once did and haven’t for quite a long time. We evolve if we choose to. Yet, these terms remain important as terms of reference between and among us. We don’t have to allow them to stagnate and I don’t believe we have. My own masculinity is intimately linked with my femininity and without unlocking gender, daring to expand its meaning, I would never have arrived at the comfort I find as a butch woman. I would not feel the freedom I once thought was impossible to experience. Even with the sometimes dangerous consequences born of ignorance. For others, this takes on differing needs in order to accomplish self harmony concerning gender identification.

I only feel negative about femininity and masculinity when they are rigidly held in traditional heteronormative boundaries. We no longer have to keep them bound there nor do we have to caste them aside. They are still viable if we allow them to continue to evolve. The power is not in the terminology, it is in the social constructs and openness to accepting what is discovered that differs from the past. Simply put, it is about not throwing out the baby with the bath water.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by AtLast

As a product of mid-20th-century heteronormative gender definitions and roles, I see great transcendence of the traditional binary. Getting here had nothing to do with the need to admonish traditional definitions of masculine or feminine or butch and femme at all. It had to do with expanding these definitions to meet the needs of more fluid concepts of gender and gender roles. Actually, androgyny was one of the first definitions (though an ancient term) taking on meaning in modern time promoting a more fluid way to see gender, and had a role in this transcendence (one role, there are many more). And also uncovering the bio-physiological bases of gender that frankly, we did not have the tools to do this earlier as well as the social gumption to do so based upon a status quo accepted at the time which was based in a dominant patriarchy.

Masculine and feminine for me no longer represent what they once did and haven’t for quite a long time. We evolve if we choose to. Yet, these terms remain important as terms of reference between and among us. We don’t have to allow them to stagnate and I don’t believe we have. My own masculinity is intimately linked with my femininity and without unlocking gender, daring to expand its meaning, I would never have arrived at the comfort I find as a butch woman. I would not feel the freedom I once thought was impossible to experience. Even with the sometimes dangerous consequences born of ignorance. For others, this takes on differing needs in order to accomplish self harmony concerning gender identification.

I only feel negative about femininity and masculinity when they are rigidly held in traditional heteronormative boundaries. We no longer have to keep them bound there nor do we have to caste them aside. They are still viable if we allow them to continue to evolve. The power is not in the terminology, it is in the social constructs and openness to accepting what is discovered that differs from the past. Simply put, it is about not throwing out the baby with the bath water.

AtLast, I appreciate your response. I really do. At the same time, I still don't feel like we've been able to place any boundaries at all on the words "masculine" and "feminine," in the way that other posters in this thread (and in past threads) have claimed that they exist. As such, I'm still wondering why people are clinging to the idea of these words having boundaries. I still feel like people are saying: "well, yes, there are boundaries as far as what defines 'masculine' and 'feminine' but we each define the terms" when essentially that just means the terms are without concrete definition and completely limitless.

Additionally, I'm still wondering why we still use these terms as important definers of "butch" and "femme" as a "masculine" vs. "feminine" dynamic. Even in what you've written above, it continues to be clear that the dynamic is not defined by "masculine energy/expression" vs. "feminine energy/expression" though we often still describe it as such, so why do we continue to make assumptions based on that dynamic? Can we not have butch/femme without such heavy reliance on two words we can't even define outside of abstract terms like "energy" and "expression"? It's like we're stuck in a maelstrom where we don't see our identities as reliant on heteronormative frameworks, we don't want to use physical characteristics and interests as what defines "masculine" and "feminine," but we still want to be able to define "masculine" and "feminine." So instead we use abstract, undefinable words (within this discourse) like "energy" and "expression." Yet there is no tangible form of "energy" that is "masculine" or "feminine," nor is there a form of "masculine" or "feminine" expression outside of social context.

If a femme does not identify as "feminine" at all, but as "masculine," I don't think anyone here would tell her that she wasn't a femme. Or at least I hope not. This translates into threads where we try to pinpoint what femmes find attractive in butches and viceversa, or what attracts femmes/butches to butches/femmes or the dynamic as a whole. Many people talk about "femininity" and "masculinity" in those threads, yet the more femmes either recreate or completely discard "femininity" (and the same for butches), then it becomes obvious that the attraction and dynamic does not actually rest on these terms. But on a certain set of attributes and characteristics that can be defined however the individual wants. So why these two terms?

What is the point of using this language (which is fine) and still claiming that it has meaning beyond being entirely subjective (which makes less sense). Why does the b/f community as a whole seem stuck on b/f as masculine/feminine?

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

If a femme does not identify as "feminine" at all, but as "masculine," I don't think anyone here would tell her that she wasn't a femme. Or at least I hope not.

Good point - I would just like to add, and I hope Stacy doesn't mind my saying this - neither of us are really all that into labels, but Stacy has tended to fall in with the femmes, however, does not always fit the femme normative. She has days one might call her butch. I am a man, however, sometimes I do things that are more feminine normative. I'm certainly not macho. I think, as a community, we would serve one another better by focusing less on labels and more on people, and on celebrating what makes us unique more than what makes us 'fit'. I know that as human beings, even subconsciously, we are driven to categorize and label... I'm just making a conscious effort to stop looking at how and where people fit best, and just let them be who they are - however they are.

[weatherboi]

What is meant by femme normative? Would you mind expanding your thoughts on that please SelfMadeMan? Thanks in advance for taking the time!!!

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

What is meant by femme normative? Would you mind expanding your thoughts on that please SelfMadeMan? Thanks in advance for taking the time!!!

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

Um me wearing make up is a choice it's not my gender.

What happens if you're a femme who never wears make up does that mean you lack femme attributes?

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Um me wearing make up is a choice it's not my gender.

What happens if you're a femme who never wears make up does that mean you lack femme attributes?

Nope - not at all. Again, I was referring to how others tend to perceive what is femme/butch/masculine/feminine - not how I see it. In my opinion, a person can wear jeans, combat boots, and a t shirt with no makeup and be one kickass femme. I also believe a person can wear make-up and be as butch as the next. I have been known to wear eyeliner... my whole point - and perhaps I'm just failing at finding the right words here - however, when I talk about societal norms and others' perceptions, I don't see how that gets equated to what I think/feel...

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

That is not a femme normative it is a femme choice in what they put on their already femme beautiful faces and what they decide to cover up their femme beautiful bodies with.

Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thanks for clarifying SMM

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

That is not a femme normative it is a femme choice in what they put on their already femme beautiful faces and what they decide to cover up their femme beautiful bodies with.

Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!!

You took that out of context - and I indicated (or so I thought) that I was talking about perceived norms (i.e. others' perceptions - not mine). I was pointing out that we - as a society - have a tendency to label others according to our own perceived norms... I don't label people and tell them how they should ID, nor do I attach norms to labels. My point was that because Stacy sometimes wears makeup, and dresses feminine, she gets labeled by others in the community as femme. Please point out to me where I said _____ IS what femmes are/do. I said it before but it obviously bears repeating... I am against labeling one another and against setting boundaries for what male/female/butch/femme'masculine/feminine means. By discussing others' perceptions/attitudes - does not make them my own.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

That is not a femme normative it is a femme choice in what they put on their already femme beautiful faces and what they decide to cover up their femme beautiful bodies with.

Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!!

^ this felt like the 3rd degree to me, being that it was in reaction to a post I made in an attempt to show why we shouldn't label one another or attach norms to people... just sayin. And by "felt like" I am not suggesting that was the intention or a fact. I agree it isn't about winning - there's no competition. I came in to support everyone's right to be true to themselves without question. That's all. And no - niceties not needed, I don't feel victimized at all - hence the smiley at the end of what was just a tongue in cheek statement. I am sarcastic, I own it, and this time, perhaps just misheard, but I've been guilty before of not explaining myself adequately - it happens.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

This is what I read into SMM's post as well. That he meant that there are certain stereotypes about butches and femmes, and that his wife doesn't fit the stereotype of femme/what is stereotypically expected of femme gender expression, not that he was trying to reinforce the stereotype. When he said "normative" I figured he meant that stereotype.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This is what I read into SMM's post as well. That he meant that there are certain stereotypes about butches and femmes, and that his wife doesn't fit the stereotype of femme/what is stereotypically expected of femme gender expression, not that he was trying to reinforce the stereotype. When he said "normative" I figured he meant that stereotype.

Thank you. I think my subsequent posts made it pretty clear that I don't buy into the norms/stereotypes... lol, I just love how I come in to support people's right to be who/what they want to regardless of societal norms and regardless of society's gender constructs and get the 3rd degree. Ah well, can't win 'em all

[The_Lady_Snow]

What is the difference in masculinity in a butch, man and femme? I'm asking cause SMM said his wife was sometimes more butch but he's man, I'm not grasping what that means since masculinity is not gender specific.

Definition of normative:

adj.
Of, relating to, or prescribing a norm or standard: normative grammar.


I guess my masculinity is abnormal compared to your partners type of femme?

Is that how that works?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is the difference in masculinity in a butch, man and femme? I'm asking cause SMM said his wife was sometimes more butch but he's man, I'm not grasping what that means since masculinity is not gender specific.

Definition of normative:

adj.
Of, relating to, or prescribing a norm or standard: normative grammar.


I guess my masculinity is abnormal compared to your partners type of femme?

Is that how that works?

Not to mention any names, but there are people it way freaks out that we are not a 1950's typical Femmes and there are parts of us some might see as masculine.

I struggle with the whole what part of me is masculine and feminine too....though I am arriving at the conclusion that it really matters not!

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is the difference in masculinity in a butch, man and femme? I'm asking cause SMM said his wife was sometimes more butch but he's man, I'm not grasping what that means since masculinity is not gender specific.

Definition of normative:

adj.
Of, relating to, or prescribing a norm or standard: normative grammar.


I guess my masculinity is abnormal compared to your partners type of femme?

Is that how that works?

I was showing examples of labels and norms that tend to go with those labels... my wife has not labeled herself femme - others have in the past because at times, she wears makeup and likes to dress up - but the hazards of labeling one another are that she doesn't necessarily want to be categorized as a femme. To the GLBT community, I am seen as butch as much as I am seen as a man - however, to hetero people, I come off as more feminine than masculine some of the time. Different people attach different norms to what is masculine and what is feminine. And masculinity means different things to different people - I think ANYONE can be masculine, male, female, butch, femme. I wasn't suggesting only a man can be masculine, nor that only a woman can be feminine - or that butch or femme are gender specific even. My point was exactly that - I don't feel we should attach rules and norms to labels, nor do I feel we need to label other people according to our understanding of said labels. If I'm not making sense, blame it on not enough coffee this morning.

And.... I didn't - and wouldn't - suggest your identity is abnormal. Anyone who knows me, knows I am the last person to do so - I am a Women & Gender Studies minor and am passionate about respecting others based on THEIR identity, not based on societal norms.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Good point - I would just like to add, and I hope Stacy doesn't mind my saying this - neither of us are really all that into labels, but Stacy has tended to fall in with the femmes, however, does not always fit the femme normative. She has days one might call her butch. I am a man, however, sometimes I do things that are more feminine normative. I'm certainly not macho. I think, as a community, we would serve one another better by focusing less on labels and more on people, and on celebrating what makes us unique more than what makes us 'fit'. I know that as human beings, even subconsciously, we are driven to categorize and label... I'm just making a conscious effort to stop looking at how and where people fit best, and just let them be who they are - however they are.

I don't see where you stated perceived norms and i read it that you were talking about your opinions...that is how it reads anyways. Accusing me of taking you out of context is a little far fetched and hence why i asked for clarification AND thanked you in advance.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

AtLast, I appreciate your response. I really do. At the same time, I still don't feel like we've been able to place any boundaries at all on the words "masculine" and "feminine," in the way that other posters in this thread (and in past threads) have claimed that they exist. As such, I'm still wondering why people are clinging to the idea of these words having boundaries. I still feel like people are saying: "well, yes, there are boundaries as far as what defines 'masculine' and 'feminine' but we each define the terms" when essentially that just means the terms are without concrete definition and completely limitless.

Additionally, I'm still wondering why we still use these terms as important definers of "butch" and "femme" as a "masculine" vs. "feminine" dynamic. Even in what you've written above, it continues to be clear that the dynamic is not defined by "masculine energy/expression" vs. "feminine energy/expression" though we often still describe it as such, so why do we continue to make assumptions based on that dynamic? Can we not have butch/femme without such heavy reliance on two words we can't even define outside of abstract terms like "energy" and "expression"? It's like we're stuck in a maelstrom where we don't see our identities as reliant on heteronormative frameworks, we don't want to use physical characteristics and interests as what defines "masculine" and "feminine," but we still want to be able to define "masculine" and "feminine." So instead we use abstract, undefinable words (within this discourse) like "energy" and "expression." Yet there is no tangible form of "energy" that is "masculine" or "feminine," nor is there a form of "masculine" or "feminine" expression outside of social context.

If a femme does not identify as "feminine" at all, but as "masculine," I don't think anyone here would tell her that she wasn't a femme. Or at least I hope not. This translates into threads where we try to pinpoint what femmes find attractive in butches and viceversa, or what attracts femmes/butches to butches/femmes or the dynamic as a whole. Many people talk about "femininity" and "masculinity" in those threads, yet the more femmes either recreate or completely discard "femininity" (and the same for butches), then it becomes obvious that the attraction and dynamic does not actually rest on these terms. But on a certain set of attributes and characteristics that can be defined however the individual wants. So why these two terms?

What is the point of using this language (which is fine) and still claiming that it has meaning beyond being entirely subjective (which makes less sense). Why does the b/f community as a whole seem stuck on b/f as masculine/feminine?

I don't think that "all" of us stick with butch-femme as masculine-feminine in this manner. Your premise feels faulty to me. I could be wrong about this. Butch also refers to gay men with certain parameters and I use these terms in some instances for heterosexuals. Although, these examples are based upon sexual orientation and I think we within the B/F community have a much broader interpretation because we seem to be a "sub-culture" in which gender theory has become a part of our queer identification- which for me, goes to the evolutionary aspects of my prior post.

Now, I have to say, however, that portions of our sub-culture may not have done this exploration. I wish I could refer to some studies here, but can't and I know that I could have a bias going on. Although, I am from "olden days," personal experience with transgendered individuals as well as an intergendered relative brought some of these questions, issues and ways of expanding gender came to me fairly early. Having to keep up with issues of both gender and sexuality has also been part of my professional life.

I know (and have seen) instances of unfamiliarity with current gender theories occurs here on this site for example. And most certainly on the dash site as well. Yet, because we discuss just about everything on this site, I don't think it takes very long for someone that joins to begin to see that matters of gender are part of this community and they can take information from here and start to educate themselves. Consequently, I don't think that the B/F community does use masculine and feminine as interchangeable with butch-femme in the manner I think you are doing.

Butch for me has masculine constructs blended with feminine constructs, for example but I am not male, I am female. My femininity is of a masculine nature as far as traditional definitions. But m presentation overall is far from the traditional contexts of gender roles. I can't speak to this for other butches or for femmes within their personal expression.

The other thing that comes to mind for me is that for a good long time, butches and femmes met with negative judgment from the more radical or separatist lesbian community. This is not true of the entire spectrum of lesbians, but could have had an effect in butches and femmes needing to defend their "brand" of lesbianism. Today, we have different concepts about the whole sexuality area as well. All part of that evolution.

I just don't experience any of this labels, terms, identifications as traditional at all at this time of my life. And to be honest, I see this within my peer group of B/F identity. I also see this among younger people more and more.

I can't make generalizations about any of this. If there is anything I have learned from people interacting on our websites, is that they are quite diverse in relationship to masculinity and femininity no matter their gender identification.

I don't experience this community using this language in any other way except to communicate ideas with terms that, although having diverse meanings, are common among us. But as in all communication, taking the time to find out what a person means by these terms in relation to what is being communicated is important. But if we don’t have a common language, how can we even begin to articulate our thoughts and feelings?

We don’t all have the same concepts of masculinity and femininity at all.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by AtLast

I don't think that "all" of us stick with butch-femme as masculine-feminine in this manner. Your premise feels faulty to me. I could be wrong about this. Butch also refers to gay men with certain parameters and I use these terms in some instances for heterosexuals. Although, these examples are based upon sexual orientation and I think we within the B/F community have a much broader interpretation because we seem to be a "sub-culture" in which gender theory has become a part of our queer identification- which for me, goes to the evolutionary aspects of my prior post.

Now, I have to say, however, that portions of our sub-culture may not have done this exploration. I wish I could refer to some studies here, but can't and I know that I could have a bias going on. Although, I am from "olden days," personal experience with transgendered individuals as well as an intergendered relative brought some of these questions, issues and ways of expanding gender came to me fairly early. Having to keep up with issues of both gender and sexuality has also been part of my professional life.

I know (and have seen) instances of unfamiliarity with current gender theories occurs here on this site for example. And most certainly on the dash site as well. Yet, because we discuss just about everything on this site, I don't think it takes very long for someone that joins to begin to see that matters of gender are part of this community and they can take information from here and start to educate themselves. Consequently, I don't think that the B/F community does use masculine and feminine as interchangeable with butch-femme in the manner I think you are doing.

Butch for me has masculine constructs blended with feminine constructs, for example but I am not male, I am female. My femininity is of a masculine nature as far as traditional definitions. But m presentation overall is far from the traditional contexts of gender roles. I can't speak to this for other butches or for femmes within their personal expression.

The other thing that comes to mind for me is that for a good long time, butches and femmes met with negative judgment from the more radical or separatist lesbian community. This is not true of the entire spectrum of lesbians, but could have had an effect in butches and femmes needing to defend their "brand" of lesbianism. Today, we have different concepts about the whole sexuality area as well. All part of that evolution.

I just don't experience any of this labels, terms, identifications as traditional at all at this time of my life. And to be honest, I see this within my peer group of B/F identity. I also see this among younger people more and more.

I can't make generalizations about any of this. If there is anything I have learned from people interacting on our websites, is that they are quite diverse in relationship to masculinity and femininity no matter their gender identification.

I don't experience this community using this language in any other way except to communicate ideas with terms that, although having diverse meanings, are common among us. But as in all communication, taking the time to find out what a person means by these terms in relation to what is being communicated is important. But if we don’t have a common language, how can we even begin to articulate our thoughts and feelings?

We don’t all have the same concepts of masculinity and femininity at all.

Here I disagree with you somewhat. I think that on this forum and in the greater butch/femme community, there is still a strong tendency to equate butch with being largely masculine and femme largely feminine. I think there are who think otherwise, but that are not the majority. Or at least we all act as though it's self-evident, or that it's the norm in our community, when it isn't. If we take any thread around here (for example, one a while back on why butches were attracted to femmes) that deals with butch/femme attraction, the discussion is often heavily weighted by assumptions of one identity being masculine and the other feminine and the contrast between the two.

I see a pattern that happens fairly consistently on the forum, even among long time members, where we get into these topics of the nature mentioned above or where we talk about each others' identity, and a lot of people go on about it being the "masculinity" of the butch or "femininity" of the femme that attracts them. Or that they felt butch as a kid because they liked masculine things and feminine females, or femme because they liked feminine things and masculine females. Then another user, who doesn't fit the stereotype, comes along and calls bullshit. Or they come and say that they don't think such and such is tell-tale of being butch/femme, because they were different as a child. Then there's a tremendous amount of backpeddling and debating until we all agree once again that "masculinity" and "femininity" are subjective. Butch and femme are subjective. Etc. etc.

It's a pretty distinct pattern/occurrence here and the fact that it keeps happening, I think, demonstrates that our community is able to accept certain concepts when they're explicitly stated, but that we fall back into our original assumptions and stereotypes about the dynamic as soon as they fade even slightly from sight.

But it always requires that the people who don't fit the stereotype come back and perpetually reassert themselves. If they didn't, what would happen?

As far as the international community outside this site, if we look at the recent split that occurred with Butch Voices over there in the states and the altering of language so that the conference encompassed "masculine of centre" individuals, again we see heavily weighted language. What is masculine? Who is masculine? Is the conference now for masculine femmes and not for feminine butches? I know that they've given their reasons, but there are a lot of underlying implications that go unaddressed in the greater community.

If we look at even the literature on butch/femme, masculine female, transmale etc. identities both in the 90's and in the 2000s/present day, again, we see heavily weighted language that relies on masculinity and femininity. When it discusses butch/femme dynamics it still discusses masculine vs. feminine. Our communities around the world still reflect that, even if some of us have come to see it differently. It's really only literature that discusses butch or trans identities specifically (and only in some cases) that really start to ditch the terms masculinity and femininity and only navigate them as far as what they mean in the heteronormative world. The majority of modern literature that discusses the modern butch/femme dynamic still operates on the understanding of butch/femme as masculine/feminine.

So I really don't think that's disappeared from our community. In fact, I think it's still pretty prevalent. That's my two cents, anyway.