Butch/Femme Dynamic vs "Masculinity" and "Femininity"

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

If a femme does not identify as "feminine" at all, but as "masculine," I don't think anyone here would tell her that she wasn't a femme. Or at least I hope not.

Good point - I would just like to add, and I hope Stacy doesn't mind my saying this - neither of us are really all that into labels, but Stacy has tended to fall in with the femmes, however, does not always fit the femme normative. She has days one might call her butch. I am a man, however, sometimes I do things that are more feminine normative. I'm certainly not macho. I think, as a community, we would serve one another better by focusing less on labels and more on people, and on celebrating what makes us unique more than what makes us 'fit'. I know that as human beings, even subconsciously, we are driven to categorize and label... I'm just making a conscious effort to stop looking at how and where people fit best, and just let them be who they are - however they are.

[weatherboi]

What is meant by femme normative? Would you mind expanding your thoughts on that please SelfMadeMan? Thanks in advance for taking the time!!!

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

What is meant by femme normative? Would you mind expanding your thoughts on that please SelfMadeMan? Thanks in advance for taking the time!!!

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

Um me wearing make up is a choice it's not my gender.

What happens if you're a femme who never wears make up does that mean you lack femme attributes?

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Um me wearing make up is a choice it's not my gender.

What happens if you're a femme who never wears make up does that mean you lack femme attributes?

Nope - not at all. Again, I was referring to how others tend to perceive what is femme/butch/masculine/feminine - not how I see it. In my opinion, a person can wear jeans, combat boots, and a t shirt with no makeup and be one kickass femme. I also believe a person can wear make-up and be as butch as the next. I have been known to wear eyeliner... my whole point - and perhaps I'm just failing at finding the right words here - however, when I talk about societal norms and others' perceptions, I don't see how that gets equated to what I think/feel...

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

That is not a femme normative it is a femme choice in what they put on their already femme beautiful faces and what they decide to cover up their femme beautiful bodies with.

Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!!

[The_Lady_Snow]

Thanks for clarifying SMM

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

That is not a femme normative it is a femme choice in what they put on their already femme beautiful faces and what they decide to cover up their femme beautiful bodies with.

Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!!

You took that out of context - and I indicated (or so I thought) that I was talking about perceived norms (i.e. others' perceptions - not mine). I was pointing out that we - as a society - have a tendency to label others according to our own perceived norms... I don't label people and tell them how they should ID, nor do I attach norms to labels. My point was that because Stacy sometimes wears makeup, and dresses feminine, she gets labeled by others in the community as femme. Please point out to me where I said _____ IS what femmes are/do. I said it before but it obviously bears repeating... I am against labeling one another and against setting boundaries for what male/female/butch/femme'masculine/feminine means. By discussing others' perceptions/attitudes - does not make them my own.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

That is not a femme normative it is a femme choice in what they put on their already femme beautiful faces and what they decide to cover up their femme beautiful bodies with.

Makeup and clothes DON'T equate femme. Calling anything a "femme normative" is taking away from the individuality/uniqueness that encompasses femme. Femme takes feminine to a whole nother level and doesnt need makeup and clothes to do it. Femme steps beyond the straight and normal normative and KICKS ASS doing it!!!

^ this felt like the 3rd degree to me, being that it was in reaction to a post I made in an attempt to show why we shouldn't label one another or attach norms to people... just sayin. And by "felt like" I am not suggesting that was the intention or a fact. I agree it isn't about winning - there's no competition. I came in to support everyone's right to be true to themselves without question. That's all. And no - niceties not needed, I don't feel victimized at all - hence the smiley at the end of what was just a tongue in cheek statement. I am sarcastic, I own it, and this time, perhaps just misheard, but I've been guilty before of not explaining myself adequately - it happens.

[weatherboi]

My post was a counter opinion to your post, not a reaction. I understand you don't believe in labels. I was trying to have a discussion about why people feel the need to construct "femme normatives/stereotypes" based around things like make up, dresses, high heels, and purses. It wasn't meant to be personal.

I just came back from a weekend where the "femme normative/stereotype" revolved around strength in numbers, being a femmes' femmes, and organizing(pulling off with grace) an event that rocked several lives and paved ground for future big things to happen.

See here even my words don't do the variety of femmes, and the coalition of energy they produce justice. That is all I was saying.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by weatherboi

My post was a counter opinion to your post, not a reaction. I understand you don't believe in labels. I was trying to have a discussion about why people feel the need to construct "femme normatives/stereotypes" based around things like make up, dresses, high heels, and purses. It wasn't meant to be personal.

I just came back from a weekend where the "femme normative/stereotype" revolved around strength in numbers, being a femmes' femmes, and organizing(pulling off with grace) an event that rocked several lives and paved ground for future big things to happen.

See here even my words don't do the variety of femmes, and the coalition of energy they produce justice. That is all I was saying.

Fair enough - no harm done - and the funny thing is - we're on the same side of this.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

By that, I mean, what is usually considered femme attributes (wearing makeup, dressing feminine, etc etc)

This is what I read into SMM's post as well. That he meant that there are certain stereotypes about butches and femmes, and that his wife doesn't fit the stereotype of femme/what is stereotypically expected of femme gender expression, not that he was trying to reinforce the stereotype. When he said "normative" I figured he meant that stereotype.

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

This is what I read into SMM's post as well. That he meant that there are certain stereotypes about butches and femmes, and that his wife doesn't fit the stereotype of femme/what is stereotypically expected of femme gender expression, not that he was trying to reinforce the stereotype. When he said "normative" I figured he meant that stereotype.

Thank you. I think my subsequent posts made it pretty clear that I don't buy into the norms/stereotypes... lol, I just love how I come in to support people's right to be who/what they want to regardless of societal norms and regardless of society's gender constructs and get the 3rd degree. Ah well, can't win 'em all

[SelfMadeMan]

Just for clarification... here's some of what *I* believe:

You can be born biologically female and ID as male and deserve to be respected as such (with or without medical intervention) and vice versa

You can be male or female (biologically or not) and be butch, or femme, or masculine or androgynous - or any other label that works for YOU, or REFUSE to be labeled - regardless of what anyone else thinks or assumes

You can be butch and wear make-up, wear anything that you choose - ANYTHING and still be butch and be respected as such.

You can be femme and wear jeans and steel toe boots and t-shirts, or ANYTHING else you choose and still be femme and respected as such.

You can be/do YOU - any way YOU choose, and not have to pick a label - just be YOU.

If you are TG and don't want to take hormones, and don't want to have your breasts removed, you are no less TG.

I believe everyone has the right to ID however they choose and say THIS is who I am - and not have to justify their identity to anyone. Period.

[weatherboi]

Uhhh nobody here is giving you the third degree. I asked for clarification with a thank you in advance. I am not sure if more niceties are needed than that for a forum conversation. I am not sure if the victimology you are owning about your experience is fair considering I asked for clarification and gave a thank you in advance. It is a discussion for me, it is not about winning, it is about learning.

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Thank you. I think my subsequent posts made it pretty clear that I don't buy into the norms/stereotypes... lol, I just love how I come in to support people's right to be who/what they want to regardless of societal norms and regardless of society's gender constructs and get the 3rd degree. Ah well, can't win 'em all

[The_Lady_Snow]

What is the difference in masculinity in a butch, man and femme? I'm asking cause SMM said his wife was sometimes more butch but he's man, I'm not grasping what that means since masculinity is not gender specific.

Definition of normative:

adj.
Of, relating to, or prescribing a norm or standard: normative grammar.


I guess my masculinity is abnormal compared to your partners type of femme?

Is that how that works?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is the difference in masculinity in a butch, man and femme? I'm asking cause SMM said his wife was sometimes more butch but he's man, I'm not grasping what that means since masculinity is not gender specific.

Definition of normative:

adj.
Of, relating to, or prescribing a norm or standard: normative grammar.


I guess my masculinity is abnormal compared to your partners type of femme?

Is that how that works?

Not to mention any names, but there are people it way freaks out that we are not a 1950's typical Femmes and there are parts of us some might see as masculine.

I struggle with the whole what part of me is masculine and feminine too....though I am arriving at the conclusion that it really matters not!

[SelfMadeMan]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

What is the difference in masculinity in a butch, man and femme? I'm asking cause SMM said his wife was sometimes more butch but he's man, I'm not grasping what that means since masculinity is not gender specific.

Definition of normative:

adj.
Of, relating to, or prescribing a norm or standard: normative grammar.


I guess my masculinity is abnormal compared to your partners type of femme?

Is that how that works?

I was showing examples of labels and norms that tend to go with those labels... my wife has not labeled herself femme - others have in the past because at times, she wears makeup and likes to dress up - but the hazards of labeling one another are that she doesn't necessarily want to be categorized as a femme. To the GLBT community, I am seen as butch as much as I am seen as a man - however, to hetero people, I come off as more feminine than masculine some of the time. Different people attach different norms to what is masculine and what is feminine. And masculinity means different things to different people - I think ANYONE can be masculine, male, female, butch, femme. I wasn't suggesting only a man can be masculine, nor that only a woman can be feminine - or that butch or femme are gender specific even. My point was exactly that - I don't feel we should attach rules and norms to labels, nor do I feel we need to label other people according to our understanding of said labels. If I'm not making sense, blame it on not enough coffee this morning.

And.... I didn't - and wouldn't - suggest your identity is abnormal. Anyone who knows me, knows I am the last person to do so - I am a Women & Gender Studies minor and am passionate about respecting others based on THEIR identity, not based on societal norms.

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by SelfMadeMan

Good point - I would just like to add, and I hope Stacy doesn't mind my saying this - neither of us are really all that into labels, but Stacy has tended to fall in with the femmes, however, does not always fit the femme normative. She has days one might call her butch. I am a man, however, sometimes I do things that are more feminine normative. I'm certainly not macho. I think, as a community, we would serve one another better by focusing less on labels and more on people, and on celebrating what makes us unique more than what makes us 'fit'. I know that as human beings, even subconsciously, we are driven to categorize and label... I'm just making a conscious effort to stop looking at how and where people fit best, and just let them be who they are - however they are.

I don't see where you stated perceived norms and i read it that you were talking about your opinions...that is how it reads anyways. Accusing me of taking you out of context is a little far fetched and hence why i asked for clarification AND thanked you in advance.