Butches and Body Image - Let's Talk About It

[girl_dee]

just a thought from this femme girl


if you are butch, that is who you are, there is NOTHING you can do that is *unbutch like*. Whatever comes natural to you is who you are.


just my humble .02

[Okiebug61]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

just a thought from this femme girl


if you are butch, that is who you are, there is NOTHING you can do that is *unbutch like*. Whatever comes natural to you is who you are.


just my humble .02

Thank You! Thank You! Thank You!

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

just a thought from this femme girl

if you are butch, that is who you are, there is NOTHING you can do that is *unbutch like*. Whatever comes natural to you is who you are.

just my humble .02

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

[TimilDeeps]

Originally Posted by boobookitty

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

Absofuckinglutely. And I think a lot of times folks can be playful with what they "expect" a butch or femme to act like or wear, etc. and I know I play around with the stereotypes just for the sake of a silly reaction. i.e. I giggle sheepishly or bat my eyelashes knowing full well that "butches aren't supposed to do that" . . . make sense?

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by TimilDeeps

Absofuckinglutely. And I think a lot of times folks can be playful with what they "expect" a butch or femme to act like or wear, etc. and I know I play around with the stereotypes just for the sake of a silly reaction. i.e. I giggle sheepishly or bat my eyelashes knowing full well that "butches aren't supposed to do that" . . . make sense?

YES !!! IT DOES!!!!

(to me anyway)


--Laughing-- the red lipcolor on a Butch, really bothers a lot of people

[ArkansasPiscesGrrl]

When I first met my partner, she kept repeating "but I am NOT a butch!" Yeah right. I could FEEL the butch, male energy rolling off of her. 'Bout knocked me over! It was how she walked (she had the swagger going on), how she talked, how she sat, how she dressed... yes it was all of that, but damnit it was WAAY more than that! It came from within her. It was a palpable aura and energy that was just HER. And the femme in ME, the woman in me who has loved on and lusted over butch women for most of my life, woke up, became ALIVE again. Skin-pricklies going on. Breath-catching going on. That inner recognition in ME, recognizing and connecting with the butch energy in HER, THAT is what caught me. Would I have had the same reaction if she had red fingernails or was wearing a dress? If her butch energy was strong enough, it might have triggered something in me. Don't know. I do know that for me, the outer package is just part of it. I need and desire and connect with and give myself to that butch energy. My femme wants to dance the dance with that butch energy.

I was so NOT trying to presume to label her as a butch that first night, and in talks we've had later. I cannot or will not label anyone, that is for them to do. She has told me though, that I am the first person that has truly SEEN *her*, and accepted *her* as she is. She IS a butch, but she is a *woman* too. HELL YEAH! (I told her that for ME, she is exactly what I was looking for... she has the butch side and the female side as well. I get to play with both! Woo-hoo!)

[Silverseastar]

I'm obviously far from butch but wading in because this thread moved me. I have to agree that it's like some inner space that speaks outwardly to me no matter how a person presents (throw on a dress and I'll still see you but maybe not quite as easily). As a femme, butchness calls to an inner space in me. But just like all femmes are not the same, neither are all butches (thank gawd!).

In a society that constantly evaluates people, especially female genders, on a set of standards and expectations of beauty and attractiveness I don't think you can grow up and dodge that bullet. Being butch may even be more complicated because there are two standards to push against instead of one. There is a silent butch standard even in the queer community.

But no matter what standards might exist in life trying to meet them pulls us farther from our true selves and anyone that might fall for that version of us is falling in love with an idea not a person. So I have to agree with the other posters. Work on being the healthiest happiest YOU you can be and it will be attractive to the right person. Who you are shines from the inside and that is what is attractive.

[TimilDeeps]

Originally Posted by Silverseastar

I'm obviously far from butch but wading in because this thread moved me. I have to agree that it's like some inner space that speaks outwardly to me no matter how a person presents (throw on a dress and I'll still see you but maybe not quite as easily). As a femme, butchness calls to an inner space in me. But just like all femmes are not the same, neither are all butches (thank gawd!).

In a society that constantly evaluates people, especially female genders, on a set of standards and expectations of beauty and attractiveness I don't think you can grow up and dodge that bullet. Being butch may even be more complicated because there are two standards to push against instead of one. There is a silent butch standard even in the queer community.

But no matter what standards might exist in life trying to meet them pulls us farther from our true selves and anyone that might fall for that version of us is falling in love with an idea not a person. So I have to agree with the other posters. Work on being the healthiest happiest YOU you can be and it will be attractive to the right person. Who you are shines from the inside and that is what is attractive.

Well said....

[Scuba]

First let me say. I speak ONLY for me and anything put down in this post refers ONLY to how I feel. I am not making blanket statements in anything I write here but only trying to lay out the experiences I have had.

I identify as butch/queer. I only identify because it helps OTHERS understand who I am. If I had a choice, I would like to identify as Chris but that's a whole different topic.

To me, the media is just downright evil when it comes to defining the human form whether masculine, feminine or other. How would it be if we all just lived in the dark? I wouldn't question my body or appearances because, well, what would I be comparing it to? I fully admit that commercialized beauty gets into my fragile little psyche and does a number on it. Do I want to look like an Adonis? Hell yes. Do I? Hell no. Do I care? Hell yes. Do I want to care? Absolutely not. It is a struggle. It is a daily struggle. It makes me feel superficial and shallow and I hate that.

There are days when I wake up and look in the mirror and think "there is NO way in HELL I'd show this body to anyone". Since I am not considering transitioning, I need to come to a happy compromise when it comes to what I "see" and what is real. For me, this is simply eating well, working out and keeping my body fit. Notice, I didn't say lean. I said fit. However, commercialized beauty will either send me under the blanket on the couch (there's now way I can measure up to society's expectations) or it motivates me back to the gym. This is a crap shoot on any given day and I tend to react both ways.

It's no wonder folks have eating disorders. I know for me, I choose my clothing wisely. I am actually quite anal about this. I buy only men's clothing and make sure that it makes my physique look masculine. Shopping for me is a chore and not a fun one. It takes a lot of trying on of clothes to make me happy. It can be depressing and makes me go to that "under the blanket place" pretty quickly. Especially when you finally find that brand that fits and they change it or discontinue it.

As far as what femmes expect? I can't answer that. But I do catch myself posturing and puffing out the chest sometimes. Does this help my cause? I have no idea. I'm sure I get more snickers than anything. The bottom line in my world is: everyone is different and well, not everyone is for everyone.

I am at a place in my life now where my body image is all about me. I need to be happy with how I look. Really, that's all that matters. I don't always get to that place but that's okay. I do believe that when I feel like I look like a million bucks (even if I just stepped off of a dirt pile) then others see that in me as well. Confidence does amazing things...just saying.

The overall sentiment that it's how we feel inside that defines us is the absolute truth. There is indeed someone for everyone.

Cheers,

Scoobs

[clay]

well spoken, Scoobs!!! ^5 dood!

[Kelt]

Originally Posted by scubadyke

First let me say. I speak ONLY for me and anything put down in this post refers ONLY to how I feel.
Scoobs

Actually, you spoke quite well for me too. Thank you.

[Ginger]

Originally Posted by ArkansasPiscesGrrl

When I first met my partner, she kept repeating "but I am NOT a butch!" Yeah right. I could FEEL the butch, male energy rolling off of her. 'Bout knocked me over! It was how she walked (she had the swagger going on), how she talked, how she sat, how she dressed... yes it was all of that, but damnit it was WAAY more than that! It came from within her. It was a palpable aura and energy that was just HER. And the femme in ME, the woman in me who has loved on and lusted over butch women for most of my life, woke up, became ALIVE again. Skin-pricklies going on. Breath-catching going on. That inner recognition in ME, recognizing and connecting with the butch energy in HER, THAT is what caught me. Would I have had the same reaction if she had red fingernails or was wearing a dress? If her butch energy was strong enough, it might have triggered something in me. Don't know. I do know that for me, the outer package is just part of it. I need and desire and connect with and give myself to that butch energy. My femme wants to dance the dance with that butch energy.

I know what you're saying I think, in terms of falling in love with a butch-appearing and acting woman who doesn't identify as butch. Looking back on why I fell so hard for someone like that, I realize it was because her sexual energy expressed in a dominating way that I was drawn to, and of course, our emotional connection was strong; I'd never met anyone so gentle, brilliant and focused on me.

When things started to go bad, it wasn't because of the ways we ID, though I've wondered if a little b/f dynamic might not have helped us through some of the hard times.

*****************

Lately I've realized that one thing I love about women who ID as butch is their sense of humor about their differences from femmes or more feminine women. Also, they see what is femme in me, in a more positive light than a non-butch woman would.

Just talking about my own experience, of course. It sounds like your experience, ArkansasPiscesGrrl, has been really positive.

[Little Fish]

IslandScout:
Lately I've realized that one thing I love about women who ID as butch is their sense of humor about their differences from femmes or more feminine women. Also, they see what is femme in me, in a more positive light than a non-butch woman would.

Scout,
I've been thinking about this since you wrote it. I've realized more recently in my life that while I am eternally attracted to feminine women, it's really the femme ID'd woman who understands me as Butch in a way that the non-Femme (but feminine women) do not. A woman the who really "owns" her Femme title, is the one to really "own" me....;-)

(see what I did there? lol--I tried to pull that off with a straight face but no....*smirking*)

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by boobookitty

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

(and for the record--I don't wear skirts because I have a phobia that someone will run their hand up the inside of my thigh. The very though triggers panic attacks)

and I am being serious..........yes all of those things are butch when a butch wears/does them. There are plenty of butches who wear skirts and make-up to work every day. It's drag and we all wear drag of some kind or another every day.

-------------------

I cannot tell a butch (or anyone for that matter) what their process looks like when it comes to acceptance of the body we are born into.

I have always identified as a girl/woman and have never doubted that at all. The butch came later when I was in college. I knew I was a different kind of woman than what the TV/magazines/etc said I should be. It was the old bulldyke at the first dive gay bar I went to, who told me I was butch.

I was raised by women of pioneer stock. One of my grandmothers told stories about coming to NM in a covered wagon. All my women elders could do anything men could do and more. They all wore pants as well as dresses. I did not get that indoctrination of my greatest achievement would be in being a wife and a mother. I was lucky.....really lucky and I am always grateful to those women who provided examples of strong women whose worth was not defined by their husband and children.

Of course I was unsure about sex and my body.....everyone is. I was fortunate in finding femmes who helped me along with that....oh yes indeed they helped.....<grin>

I am never impressed with superficiality. never. ever. I understand there are femmes (and butches) who are superficial and I have a high radar for it. And I don't play in their playground. I don't want to be around anyone who is superficial.....there are plenty of other folks in this world.

I think I am rambling so I will stop.......

edited to add..........oh yeah......my only body image was I wanted to be 6 ft tall ...............5'8" is too short and I was a bit insecure about not being feminine enough but I outgrew that.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by boobookitty

(I am being playful... not hostile with this)

Does that include wearing bright red fake fingernails and bright red lip color?

or how about dresses... bareleg and / or high heels?

Apologies for participating in the derail, but I do want to comment on this. I'm dating a very butch woman who sometimes performs in female drag. Her drag personna feels a lot like a toughened up Diana Ross, but about a dozen sizes larger. Her personna wears wigs, heavy make-up, and sparkly dresses. The reason why everyone enjoys and understands the performance as drag is that her virile, masculine energy easily overwhelms any height of heel. Stereotypically feminine trappings only serve to accentuate her masculinity. That said, I don't think examining the ways in which butches may or may not choose to rock feminine drag is the purpose of the OP.

I'm really interested in how butches choose role models, especially while growing up. It must be extraordinarily complex. We're all bombarded with impossible ideals for feminine beauty, but for better or worse, there are virtually no media representations of butchness. How can/do butches, especially butches who grow up in relative isolation, make choices about how to present themselves? If that happens in isolation, it would seem like a minor miracle if eating disorders were not widespread amongst younger butches.

[clay]

Excellent post, Cheryl!
For me, I grew up with no role models,(until age 19-23) my butchness came from within..I was born with mine...I am a "rare" breed of butch...and I always danced to my own tunes. I walked to my own drumbeat! I never let anyone dictate to me who, what, how, where, or when I should be anything BUT me. It was very hard, growing up in the 60's...BUT I thank Woodstock, the Hippies, the age of the Flower Power people, and living in Hawaii for 4 years. The island of Oahu gave me so much..so damned much..it was a huge melting pot of some truly gentle peoples...the South Pacific Islanders...who were so gentle, so loving, so accepting of so many different "identities"
My role models were the survivors of the Stonewall beatings and witch hunts, the super human heroes of the Military who fought to ensure my rights while losing many of their own, and the awesome women such as Phyllis & Del Lyons, Radclyffe Hall (Well of Loneliness), the Marchers on Washington, and the others who followed..so bravely and gave their all..and made huge sacrifices....but I never dressed according to anyone's standards, instead as to how I felt comfortable. I am a sporty butch, if you will. If I wanted to wear combat boots, carry a heavy chained wallet in my back pcket, and chew tobacco.,..it was because I made that choice...NOT because someone wrote or said I should....or that it defined any gender or identity.
I never had any "gay" friends until I was in my late 20's. I came out at age 23 with a 36 year old femme...and the song "Help Me Make It Through The Night" by Sammi Smith lol..and I never looked back. I didn't know the words "lesbian, gay, queer, dyke" or such til I read the works of Radclyffe Hall and of course the Beebo Brinker series...lol...BUT it also never mattered to me..as I loved women and that was all I needed to know. I have never been a fan of labels..of any kind...and I HATE the word "queer" and "faggot"...I try to live and love my own terms and respect others. I have never made any apologies for who I am and how I am...nor will I. It is surprising how open minded I am, having been reared in the Deep South, in the Bible Belt, no less...BUT I always accepted folks for themselves, never was prejudiced in any way, and respected others! My family was quite the opposite. I was shunned when I came out, and I still lived and stayed true to my own self..I REFUSE to be told how I should live, love, dress, act, or anything else..it is my life and my chocies, on my own terms. I live my life on my own terms...and I am thankful to have grown up with some incredible pioneer role models...it is through the sufferings and humiliations of those before me that I am afforded the liberties and slow but sure rights we are gaining today.
My thoughts here are from my own perspective, and are not meant to "generalize" or to "compartmentalize" anyone...just my own .02!!!

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Apologies for participating in the derail, but I do want to comment on this. I'm dating a very butch woman who sometimes performs in female drag. Her drag personna feels a lot like a toughened up Diana Ross, but about a dozen sizes larger. Her personna wears wigs, heavy make-up, and sparkly dresses. The reason why everyone enjoys and understands the performance as drag is that her virile, masculine energy easily overwhelms any height of heel. Stereotypically feminine trappings only serve to accentuate her masculinity. That said, I don't think examining the ways in which butches may or may not choose to rock feminine drag is the purpose of the OP.

I'm really interested in how butches choose role models, especially while growing up. It must be extraordinarily complex. We're all bombarded with impossible ideals for feminine beauty, but for better or worse, there are virtually no media representations of butchness. How can/do butches, especially butches who grow up in relative isolation, make choices about how to present themselves? If that happens in isolation, it would seem like a minor miracle if eating disorders were not widespread amongst younger butches.

[BullDog]

I am butch, I am female, I am a woman. I have never compared myself to males or used that as any sort of measuring stick for what butch is for me. Therefore I never come up short.

I do embrace masculinity- female masculinity. It is expressed through my energy, my appearance, my attitude and sense of self. It is a large part of being butch and who I am.

As to my body I would prefer not to have breasts, but I can live with it and do. Other than that I am quite fine with my female body.

[Scuba]

Originally Posted by claybaby

For me, I grew up with no role models,(until age 19-23) my butchness came from within..I was born with mine..."

I read "The Well of Loneliness" in my early 20s and it changed my world. It was my first exposure to female masculinity and my first exposure to the butch/femme dynamic. Later on in life, maybe late 30s, I happened to cross paths with a very butch woman who ended up bring vast amounts of wisdom and insight to my life under the rock

[Turtle]

I've never fit in with the society I've observed around me.

Somehow, I know "tomboy" was probably me, but it took awhile to figure out what it meant and if it was a putdown or not because, for me, it just felt like a statement of fact. You could always find me up a tree, riding bikes, or catching frogs (and letting them go) somewhere.

I wanted "boy's underwear," black high tops, and to run around in the summer with my shirt off.

As a teenager, I wanted to cut off my breasts and cut out my uterus...and a couple of times since then...AND I have given birth to two babies and fed those babies with those breasts, which brought me to accepting my body in all of its ways of being.

I've tried having discussions (mostly because I process information better out loud or in expression) with other people about what they think about breasts/no breasts, hormones, etc....and learned that all that doesn't matter, I need to do what I need to do and others do what's best for them.

I do appreciate a good discussion though, on anything.

I have gotten used to not fitting in so neatly with the society around me. I have learned to find like folk. I have learned to say "fuck it." I have come to a place where I really love this life and I just try to share that where I can...no matter what I'm wearing, what's in my pants, or how my hair is cut. Amen.

[AlexHunter]

ScubaDyke - I identify strongly with everything you said. You summed up my sentiments perfectly.