Abuse in butch-femme relationships

[dancer611]

Possession of property??!

[Dude]

Originally Posted by dancer611

Possession of property??!

I believe , what that poster meant by that was

*"the love you to death" & "if I cant have you, no one else will" people
*controlling ,possessive folks who now own you( or feel like they do)

[Dude]

I read the opening post a few hours before I posted.
Somehow, ( I think brainwashing by society and who normally hits who sterio type bs)
I did not remember the part of you hitting her at all.
This would have definately changed my post, had I retained the whole story.

In my experience ,I was in such shock it was happening to me I was unable to
do much other than protect my head from getting pummeled or dodge flying objects.
The shame of getting physically battered by a femme was huge for me.
I found out later commiserating with one of her ex's that she equated violence with love and wanted it in return. She hit her back and they were magically abusive together for five years. The incidents became more life threatening like jumping out on the freeway,
wielding weapons on each other,etc.


I did get therapy over this event and a few other (not so choice) times in my life.

So yes, get therapy. Your self esteem will grow, you wont be insecure if you learn to value and love yourself. You wont believe the bs that you are less than , if not in a relationship. You wont want to be violent yourself if you learn to deal with your own anger.

Do not stop to hit someone who you are trying to get away from. hellooooo

People really do die sometimes. Sometimes because they stay, sometimes when they leave and sometimes on the inside from being beat down for way too long.
Dont fuck around with your life. The truth is never gentle in abusive situations.

[Tcountry]

I'll confess I didn't read everything everyone said....
but.....run.... get away & stay away
a lot of times it is not IF it will happen again but WHEN... even if they are in counseling.
& even if it didn't happen again....YOU would be waiting for it too... that doesn't breed a healthy relationship....

Go get counseling for U....& don't look back



*tip hat*

[dancer611]

Whoa, whoa. I didn't "batter" her, and I don't own any weapons whatsoever, nor would I threaten anyone with one...not sure if you're implying that I did, but...one of the reasons this has been hard is that, while I did slap her the one time, and felt/feel extreme guilt for it, it was when she was drunk, I was already terrified, she had pulled a knife on me and choked me previusly, and someone twice my size was bearing down on me, screaming in my face, and refusing to leave my apartment when I was begging them to out of fear. So, the question for me has been where the line is drawn. People/domestic violence websites will say the size, gender ID, etc., doesn't factor in, and on an emotional/moral level I agree, but physically it is simply untrue. She held me down and barely let me breathe for 15 minutes. She put all of her weight on me and almost crushed me. I could never do that to her, no matter how angry I was; and no matter how angry I was, or what she did to me, I COULD NOT defend myself. Slapping her did not hurt her. She did not even flinch. When she was chasing me down the street, I really had nowhere to go. She had taken my phone, we had been in her car, and she had pulled over where no one could see us and there were no houses. She was bearing down on me, using her size to intimidate me, and SHE HAD JUST PULLED A KNIFE ON ME AND THREATENED TO MURDER ME. So I tried to fight back by hitting her, but still she grabbed me, and threw me down by my hair, then got in my face, pinned me down and continued to scream while I cried. So. I'm not saying that I made the correct decisions, or that everything I did was right. It clearly wasn't. But I was emotionally beholden to her at this point, and felt physically helpless. Even if I had TRIED, this could not have been "mutual abuse." She choked me on several occasions, poured a drink in my face once and pinned me down or threw me down several times, as well as brandishing the weapon. I slapped her once when I was already scared and trapped in an apartment (she, once again, took my phone so I couldn't call the police). So, even though I feel guilt, because violence is not the answer, a lot of these posts have focused on my one slap...and I feel that I have to be fair to myself, that this was a pattern for her (in past relationships as well), and not for me. She tried to make me feel that, because I attempted (always failing) to defend myself, I was "abusing" her too. And that's just not what happened.

[Random]

Originally Posted by dancer611

Whoa, whoa. I didn't "batter" her, and I don't own any weapons whatsoever, nor would I threaten anyone with one...not sure if you're implying that I did, but...one of the reasons this has been hard is that, while I did slap her the one time, and felt/feel extreme guilt for it, it was when she was drunk, I was already terrified, she had pulled a knife on me and choked me previusly, and someone twice my size was bearing down on me, screaming in my face, and refusing to leave my apartment when I was begging them to out of fear. So, the question for me has been where the line is drawn. People/domestic violence websites will say the size, gender ID, etc., doesn't factor in, and on an emotional/moral level I agree, but physically it is simply untrue. She held me down and barely let me breathe for 15 minutes. She put all of her weight on me and almost crushed me. I could never do that to her, no matter how angry I was; and no matter how angry I was, or what she did to me, I COULD NOT defend myself. Slapping her did not hurt her. She did not even flinch. When she was chasing me down the street, I really had nowhere to go. She had taken my phone, we had been in her car, and she had pulled over where no one could see us and there were no houses. She was bearing down on me, using her size to intimidate me, and SHE HAD JUST PULLED A KNIFE ON ME AND THREATENED TO MURDER ME. So I tried to fight back by hitting her, but still she grabbed me, and threw me down by my hair, then got in my face, pinned me down and continued to scream while I cried. So. I'm not saying that I made the correct decisions, or that everything I did was right. It clearly wasn't. But I was emotionally beholden to her at this point, and felt physically helpless. Even if I had TRIED, this could not have been "mutual abuse." She choked me on several occasions, poured a drink in my face once and pinned me down or threw me down several times, as well as brandishing the weapon. I slapped her once when I was already scared and trapped in an apartment (she, once again, took my phone so I couldn't call the police). So, even though I feel guilt, because violence is not the answer, a lot of these posts have focused on my one slap...and I feel that I have to be fair to myself, that this was a pattern for her (in past relationships as well), and not for me. She tried to make me feel that, because I attempted (always failing) to defend myself, I was "abusing" her too. And that's just not what happened.

And you are wondering if you should give her another chance?

I think you just answered your own question...

and IMO anytime one partner hits another partner it is abuse... (Unless that's the way your dynamic is set up)

[dancer611]

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

[Dude]

Originally Posted by dancer611

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

Now's your time to do something different.
Stay in the reality of how bad that felt and dont go back.

First you were making excuses for her now you are telling us how bad it was.
We believe you and we arent the enemy.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by dancer611

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

You've made some interesting statements. First of all, not many of the above posts mentioned your slap. Most of the posts have simply said that you MUST NOT return to your abusive ex. Staying away from that dangerous person is the most important advice everyone here has given you.

You speak about your single instance of slapping your ex as self defense. First, what on earth makes you think, even now, that slapping a violent person, who is twice your size, who has threatened you with a weapon, and who has made you fear for your life, is a defensive act? One of the reasons I think you should get into therapy and not a new girlfriend, is because that act still seems to make sense to you. Plus, you seem tempted to re-engage with your abuser.

I'm sorry if I sound overly harsh. I don't believe you've abused your ex, but I do believe you've engaged in a toxic pattern with her. Physically engaging as you've described with an abusive person twice your size seems to be your pattern in this relationship. Get out and get help.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by dancer611

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

Hi Dancer,

I get what you're saying to an extent.

I think that if you are being attacked, you have the right to defend yourself....up to and including being violent in return.

However, just for me, when you go back again and again even after this has happened....and then you react with violence yourself....now you're in a mutually toxic and, yes, abusive situation.

Once someone has been violent or abusive with you once....and you go back...it isn't all on her. You need counseling too (in my opinion)....and going back and giving more and more chances is inviting the abuse to continue.

I wish you well with this....and my advice is what you've already heard. Run far, run fast, do not look back....and get the counseling you need....because you truly do need to see your part in this too so that it never happens again.

Hugs,
Jo

[julieisafemme]

I know this is against the TOS but I feel in is necessary in the context of this discussion.

Dancer you have started a lot of threads. One is about where are the butches. One is about how to attract a butch when you feel insecure doing so. This one is about a butch who hurt you. It seems like you are all over the map here. I am posting because I was young and insecure once and made a choice to stay with a man who was not a good fit for me. I was insecure and confused and felt like he knew better than anyone. The truth was that I did not know myself. The last thing I should have been doing is being in a relationship with anyone.

I agree with everyone else that the best thing for you to do is to take some time to be with yourself. You are young and there is somuch out there for you to learn and explore that does not involve partnering with someone. I wish someone had said this to me or if they did, that I would have listened. Therapy can be transformative experience. You can work out these things in a safe space with boundaries. I am so lucky I found my therapist and that she was a gifted professional who gave me the space to work out a lot of things in a totally bounded, safe space. I wish you the best of luck and hope you will listen to the many wise people here who are speaking from experience.

[aishah]

we are not the best place to be turning to for help/advice. we don't know you that well, and even among friends who DO know you well, sometimes it is hard to give/receive advice when you don't know the full picture and when our own experiences with abuse are heavily influencing our response. if the purpose of posting here is just to get your story out or open up a general discussion on ipv in butch/femme relationships, that's one thing. but it seems like you are looking for some sort of advice or affirmation of what you did/what you should do next, and i'm not sure this is the best environment to get that.

you need to seek out a therapist and/or a support group with experience dealing with intimate partner violence in queer relationships. if you don't know of any i can help you find some via pm. but honestly that will be way more helpful than anything we can tell you.

So, am I crazy? What can I do in this situation? Should I cut off contact with her? If we are meant to be, is it worth it at all to try to fix anything or continue in the future?

you're not crazy. leave, get counseling, encourage her to get counseling, maintain boundaries for the sake of your well-being.

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by dancer611

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

Always defend yourself. Turn into a wild tazmanian devil and unleash the fury of a 1000 wars on them. If you had done that from day 1 the coward would have never bothered you again. And she certainly wouldn't be trying to get back with you, I promise you that!!!
You said you slapped her when she wasn't drunk (and you felt guilty), then you say you were protecting yourself during a drunken attack. Which one was it? Whatever, it's your story you tell it. You started this thread to ask for advice or opinions. So don't be getting defensive and grouchy with people who give you the advice you are solicting. First of all it's free advice secondly most of us do care. Your anger is not with us, direct it towards your wonderful coward or yourself for allowing it . You have alot of misplaced emotions. You want to paint yourself up as a victim. But I have a news flash for you, you were only a victim the first time it happened. Anytime after that you are a volunteer. You had all my sympathy the first time it happened after that I just get annoyed.
We aren't trained therapists just people who care or have been there or know someone who has etc... we know what works for us.
I don't think anyone has the right to lay a finger on anyone else for any reason unless it's in self-defense. I highly doubt anyone here would advocate balling up in the fetal position and let yourself get plummeted instead of fighting back if you can. And even if they do, you asked for advice and you'll get it , lots of it, from all different points of view. Sometimes the ones that irk you the most, are the ones you should sit with for awhile and mull over. They probably have alot of truth to them, because the truth hurts if we have buried our heads in the sand too long.

[Lady_Di]

Originally Posted by dancer611

So you do not allow for self defense? I was supposed to allow her to drunkenly attack me??!

I didn't mean that to sound rude, at all. It's just that people keep saying I should have done something different, and I'm not sure what that was. I was screaming and crying, but no one came; I had no phone to call anyone; and I could not just "walk away" because she was trapping and following me, and/or pinning me down or putting her hand over my mouth. So what on earth else was I supposed to do, if I'm not allowed to ever lay a hand on anyone?

I used to council women and men *yes, they get abused and raped too* - and I always was trained and believe it is true. You do whatever you have to to survive. Shout, scream, run... get away.

and they are most dangerous after you have left, so you have to keep your guard up

we call it being hyper vigilant


I agree with what Jagg said and the way Jagg said it!

Run.

Get help and do not go back!

[Gentle Tiger]

Hello Everyone.

The subject of abuse is a sensitive one. It has infected and affected several in our communities. And therefore, it is one that we should definitely talk about in general. But we need to be very careful and clear about where the limits are. We want to support one another. And we want our members safe.

Such a discussion thread should not be viewed as a place of counselling. We as Butch Femme Planet are not equipped to provide solutions to very real problems. Even those who are licensed professionals cannot truly speak to anyone's specific situations since there is very limited involvement with those involved in the traumatic situations.

We strongly encourage anyone dealing with abuse in any form to seek professional help immediately. Utilize the resources available to you through legal means, support groups and individual therapy. The Planet is not such a resource. The Planet should not be used as an alternative to seeking professional help to ensure one's safety and emotional well being.

In light of this, we are closing this thread which was created to address a specific problem. Again, you are free to discuss the issue of abuse in a general way. Please be careful and sensitive in your posts.

Thank You,
Malcolm (Moderator)

[Dude]

Originally Posted by Dude

People really do die sometimes. Sometimes because they stay, sometimes when they leave and sometimes on the inside from being beat down for way too long.
Dont fuck around with your life. The truth is never gentle in abusive situations.

Sometimes when they fight back ,they get to kill
or be killed.

I met someone who's ex shot themself over the phone. They were
long distance ,she had to call 911 , she lived ,they got back together, this lady didnt get a second date with me after that story.
woah to crazy kind of love
No Thank You!

[Toughy]

A story has been told. Both sides were physically violent which we are told after our sympathy has been captured. We are told one side of the story. It was the femme side. What is the other side?. What if a butch came and told the same story?

I hate this kind of thread. It leaves many impressions that are not always deserved. Lots of RUN NOW before you DIE.....and then the 'I hit back in self defense' story starts begins to appear from the injured party. Very little attention is paid and what there is has to do with self defense......

either it is wrong for anyone to hit anyone or it's ok to hit sometimes in certain circumstances or it's wrong if a masculine person hits a feminine person but ok if a feminine person hits a masculine person......

from the story told..............both sides are fucked up and both sides need to deal with their own shit before they ever try to have a successful relationship with anyone......

[Random]

Originally Posted by Toughy

A story has been told. Both sides were physically violent which we are told after our sympathy has been captured. We are told one side of the story. It was the femme side. What is the other side?. What if a butch came and told the same story?

I hate this kind of thread. It leaves many impressions that are not always deserved. Lots of RUN NOW before you DIE.....and then the 'I hit back in self defense' story starts begins to appear from the injured party. Very little attention is paid and what there is has to do with self defense......

either it is wrong for anyone to hit anyone or it's ok to hit sometimes in certain circumstances or it's wrong if a masculine person hits a feminine person but ok if a feminine person hits a masculine person......

from the story told..............both sides are fucked up and both sides need to deal with their own shit before they ever try to have a successful relationship with anyone......

Nods....

Years ago I was a smacker...

I thought it was CUTE and girly to smack my butch on the shoulder when she annoyed me... In that.. *Oh YOU, stop that* kind of way...

Never thought a thing about it...

Until she finally said... Will you stop hitting me?

Hitting her? I didn't hit her... I smacked her on the shoulder...

Then I thought about it... I was putting my hands on my partner in a not so loving way and it hurt/annoyed her...

Yep, I was hitting her... Techn is could be considered abuse...

Made me sick to my stomake and I've never smacked anyone like that again...

Non negotiated hitting is a no no...

[Scorp]

Dancer, are you quoting what I posted earlier? If so, please elaborate...

Originally Posted by dancer611

Possession of property??!