Why lipstick lesbians have to keep coming out of the closet

[Martina]

i know a lot of non-bf lesbians who have hot sex, in fact, kinky sex. Just saying.

[LipstickLola]

My Xg/f had never been with a femme lesbian before, all of her previous relationships had been with very androgynous (in appearence outwardly) lesbians. There was a period of time that I felt she was quite uncomfortable with me, then there were times I felt like she reveled in it, I let her be her strong beautiful self, but then when I wanted to, I was just as strong and anything but the femme I appeared to be on the outside, such as changing the oil in my truck, I used to sneak and do it, LOL
All in all, I believe this was a core issue in the demise of the relationship.

Sometimes I still just want to scream, why, why, why???? can't we all be happy?

[apretty]

good article, thanks.

[Passionaria]

Originally Posted by Martina

i know a lot of non-bf lesbians who have hot sex, in fact, kinky sex. Just saying.

I don't doubt that at all, but it wasn't cool to be kinky in this bunch. The need for conformity shouted that, to me anyway.

<3 Pashi

[*Anya*]

I enjoyed the article and agree that as a femme lesbian I do need to continually "come out" unless I am with my crew-cut butch and then it is pretty clear what I am.

During my last hospitalization as she would walk the halls with me trailing my IV pole and holding her arm, I saw recognition wash over the face of everyone passed or if they came into my room and saw her- they knew right away I was a lesbian. I liked it because I did not need to say a word and I was instantly out.

I personally would rather keep this thread on the original focus and point of the article, than turn it into one on some androgynous lesbians being intolerant of the butch-femme dynamic.

It always makes me very uncomcomfortable when I see that happening. Butch-femme is a small minority within a small minority and generalizations always bother me. I am not discounting anyone's own personal experiences.

I personally would rather hear about how each of us continually need to come out as invisible femmes, than becoming negative about other lesbians not into our dynamic.

I have been out for some 34 years. I have had relationships with a femme, butches and androgynous lesbians. It is the fault of no one that what rings my own chimes are butches in general and at this point in my life, my love, my butch; in particular.

Why anyone of us are turned on by the butch-femme dynamic can't be explained, it just is.

My lesbian androgynous sisters not into our shared b-f dynamic still deal with the same issues that we do as lesbians in general and for that reason alone, I personally do not feel comfortable focusing on how they may or may not feel comfortable with strap-on sex. For me, that would be another thread entirely.

[LipstickLola]

I actually 'came out' again this past weekend to someone I'd known all my life, the look on their face was pure confusion.
Sigh...........Just keep on shining in my own way I guess!

[Kelt]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I enjoyed the article and agree that as a femme lesbian I do need to continually "come out" unless I am with my crew-cut butch and then it is pretty clear what I am.

During my last hospitalization as she would walk the halls with me trailing my IV pole and holding her arm, I saw recognition wash over the face of everyone passed or if they came into my room and saw her- they knew right away I was a lesbian. I liked it because I did not need to say a word and I was instantly out.

From the butch perspective this provided me with an interesting learning experience as well.

Given my appearance I am pretty much never mistaken as straight. I am accustomed to being instantly categorized whether for good or for bad. When we would walk the hospital together it was just those same old looks as far as I was concerned.

I first started to realize what she was going though when I would return to her room and someone else was already there. Sometimes if I would step out to check on something, or get a meal I would come back and there would be somebody new talking to her. Whether a nurse or doctor or someone else, there would be this big double take when I would walk into the room.

They would be looking at her and talking with her and glance over to see me. At that point you could practically see the gears start turning in their heads. They would look back at her and give her that second evaluation look. Then the lightbulb would go on.

They were extremely good about treating us as a respected couple. But it gave me a chance to see that she does in fact operate under a cloud of assumption that others place upon her. I don't know what went on in these people's minds as they reassessed her. But it was clear to me that that was what was going on.

It was good for me to see this. I guess I just always thought that it would be easier to select who did and did not know, and have the option of passing.

I think about it a little differently now. I can see where having everyone assume that you are something you are not and having to constantly correct them if you want them to get it right would be cumbersome at best.

No answers here, just an observation.

I continue to be impressed with all of the femmes out there, but this one in particular.

[Passionaria]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

I personally would rather keep this thread on the original focus and point of the article, than turn it into one on some androgynous lesbians being intolerant of the butch-femme dynamic.

It always makes me very uncomcomfortable when I see that happening. Butch-femme is a small minority within a small minority and generalizations always bother me. I am not discounting anyone's own personal experiences.

I personally would rather hear about how each of us continually need to come out as invisible femmes, than becoming negative about other lesbians not into our dynamic.

I have been out for some 34 years. I have had relationships with a femme, butches and androgynous lesbians. It is the fault of no one that what rings my own chimes are butches in general and at this point in my life, my love, my butch; in particular.
.

Hi Anya,
I was sharing a couple of recent experiences, about me coming out as a femme, out side of the B-F Community. Several in a row, that left me feeling really seen and unwanted. I didn't create the mindset of the different groups, I walked into it, and was shocked. I apologize if my experiences make you uncomfortable. I can assure you not as uncomfortable as I am......And strap on sex was a subject in this experience, as well as male energy, and being too femme. The bottom line is that these experiences were far from positive, and left me really sad and baffled.

I can't pretend these experiences were wonderful sisterhood bonding moments in the lesbian world, they were not, and quite frankly I needed a bit of support. I realize that I have strong feelings about my experiences, and that I am intense and verbose and descriptive, but I am also straight up honest about how I felt it, what I saw. Writing it out helped me process it. Honestly if you all read that and can not tell my heart is hurting, well.................


PS I hope you are mending well. It's nice to see you happy with your sweetie
<3 Pashi

[deedarino]

I crave being out and proud...yet unless partnered, I am invisible. I am automatically considered straight and I assure you I am not. In fact, often I have to assure potential partners and wayward males that I am not.

There was a time that I changed my look to fit in, to be able to be a LESBIAN...but I did not fit in. Turns out you can change your clothes but it doesn't change you. I looked ridiculous and more importantly, felt like I was in logger drag. I wanted to just be who I was but thought something was wrong with me. Maybe I was a faker, maybe I was confused. I was constantly asked by my friends (who didn't understand it any more than I did), "If you like girls that look like guys why don't you just date guys???" I had no idea but that thought wasn't appealing at all.

My life changed when I found a community of Butch/Femmes. Forever the loves of my life. I was like a kid at christmas...and probably acted like one too...lol. I put back on MY clothes and my lipstick, and my confidence...I still have no answers as to why but I now know exactly who I am. I may not always be "out" but I am always proud.

And I am grateful for you all...

[Library_girl]

Originally Posted by deedarino

I crave being out and proud...yet unless partnered, I am invisible. I am automatically considered straight and I assure you I am not. In fact, often I have to assure potential partners and wayward males that I am not.

There was a time that I changed my look to fit in, to be able to be a LESBIAN...but I did not fit in. Turns out you can change your clothes but it doesn't change you. I looked ridiculous and more importantly, felt like I was in logger drag. I wanted to just be who I was but thought something was wrong with me. Maybe I was a faker, maybe I was confused. I was constantly asked by my friends (who didn't understand it any more than I did), "If you like girls that look like guys why don't you just date guys???" I had no idea but that thought wasn't appealing at all.

My life changed when I found a community of Butch/Femmes. Forever the loves of my life. I was like a kid at christmas...and probably acted like one too...lol. I put back on MY clothes and my lipstick, and my confidence...I still have no answers as to why but I now know exactly who I am. I may not always be "out" but I am always proud.

And I am grateful for you all...

Absolutely! We femmes ARE usually invisible when unpartnered, which is so frustrating. Several femmes together can look like a group of straight women. Going to a "lesbian" event as a solo femme....eek! I stick out like a sore thumb. The looks I get feel like "What's with the skirt?"

This is not new. When I first came out of the closet 25 years ago, I tried to fit into some type of lesbian classification. Back then it was sporty dyke, hikin' dyke, granola dyke, baby dyke, etc. (Pardon the use of "dyke" if that offends you--that's what we said in my part of the world back then.) It always felt weird and unnatural. I still never purchased Birkenstocks, but I did get some Tevas. LOL Then later when I discovered the butch/femme world of the early 90's...woo hoo! It was like coming home. There were so few of us, but I didn't care. I'd found my femme identity. It has gotten a little bit easier in "Mainstream Lesbiana" in the last 20 years, I have to say. But that's due, in part, to societal improvements, as well as the growth of the LGBT community. Hooray for all of it!

And now I just hope for and push for a better recognition of femmes who are unpartnered, like myself. Short of a giant forehead tattoo.....I like the suggestions on the Femme Flagging thread.

[*Anya*]

Since I was personally addressed because of my post, I shall respond in kind. I generally prefer to do it in a pm but again, since the post was addressed to me specifically, I will post my response here.

Pashi, I was not uncomfortable hearing of your own personal experiences.

What I did state, without calling you out personally in my post, was that generalizations made me uncomfortable!

Besides generalizations about androgynous lesbians, there felt to me, a judgmental tone to your post that yes, did make me uncomfortable and I quote:

"I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. "

You, yourself, acknowledged that you were generalizing:

"Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme."

One of the insults some straight men (not all) have always liked to throw at lesbians is that we hate or dislike men as the reason we are lesbians.

I expect it when I hear it from them but did not expect to see you use that same old tired myth that lesbians dislike men and that is why we are lesbians. Your post also included this:

"It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men".

We have no idea what their issues with butch identity are but to say that many of them dislike men? That is part of that old myth about lesbians.

The intent of the article was about the need for femme lesbians to keep on coming out due to our invisibility.

That is one issue that all of us as femmes/ femme lesbians can relate to.

I just do not relate to the need to put down, be critical or hostile towards lesbians or dykes that are not into the butch-femme dynamic or who chose to live their life in a more androgynous manner than I do.

Some may have been rude to femmes from a lack of understanding. It has happened to me. I just accepted that we had differences and found my place in our community.

I still think it is a large enough community to have some sensitivity and understanding of those issues that we have in common with all dykes and lesbians: a lack of tolerance and acceptance by the society at large.

I can love the butch-femme dynamic without needing to be intolerant of those not into it for whatever their reasons may be.

That is how I see it.

[Passionaria]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

Since I was personally addressed because of my post, I shall respond in kind. I generally prefer to do it in a pm but again, since the post was addressed to me specifically, I will post my response here.

Pashi, I was not uncomfortable hearing of your own personal experiences.

What I did state, without calling you out personally in my post, was that generalizations made me uncomfortable!

Besides generalizations about androgynous lesbians, there felt to me, a judgmental tone to your post that yes, did make me uncomfortable and I quote:

"I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. "

You, yourself, acknowledged that you were generalizing:

"Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme."

One of the insults some straight men (not all) have always liked to throw at lesbians is that we hate or dislike men as the reason we are lesbians.

I expect it when I hear it from them but did not expect to see you use that same old tired myth that lesbians dislike men and that is why we are lesbians. Your post also included this:

"It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men".

We have no idea what their issues with butch identity are but to say that many of them dislike men? That is part of that old myth about lesbians.

The intent of the article was about the need for femme lesbians to keep on coming out due to our invisibility.

That is one issue that all of us as femmes/ femme lesbians can relate to.

I just do not relate to the need to put down, be critical or hostile towards lesbians or dykes that are not into the butch-femme dynamic or who chose to live their life in a more androgynous manner than I do.

Some may have been rude to femmes from a lack of understanding. It has happened to me. I just accepted that we had differences and found my place in our community.

I still think it is a large enough community to have some sensitivity and understanding of those issues that we have in common with all dykes and lesbians: a lack of tolerance and acceptance by the society at large.

I can love the butch-femme dynamic without needing to be intolerant of those not into it for whatever their reasons may be.

That is how I see it.

Thank you for sharing your viewpoints and feelings. Some stereotypes are hype, some have basis in reality, especially when a pattern forms over time. Just because I call some people on their behavior does not mean I am anti-anything, besides the behavior it's self, and it's obvious it was working my nerves. I just honestly say what I see and feel, and my vivid imagery often gets me into hot water. That is how I saw it lol. Oatmeal, birds and all. We may have different styles of expression, and that's cool. We'll just leave it at that. I do appreciate you taking the time to express yourself. I won't derail any further.
Pashi

[lettertodaddy]

Originally Posted by Library_girl

(Pardon the use of "dyke" if that offends you--that's what we said in my part of the world back then.)

I love the word dyke. I consider myself to be a femme dyke. That word encapsulates so many meanings, but when I say I'm interested in butch dykes, people seem to understand what I mean.

[grenade]

"I could literally fingerbang a girl in the street but because I’d do it with glitter nail polish and bracelets clanging, I won’t be viewed as truly, purely gay."

This is so true to me.

My boss recently confided to me that because her boss had hired a close friend (her boss is a lesbian) the whole company would be nothing but lesbians. "You know how they are, if you have one they bring all their friends."

I looked at her and asked, "Really? You're saying this to me?"

Her response, "Oh, I forget."

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by grenade

My boss recently confided to me that because her boss had hired a close friend (her boss is a lesbian) the whole company would be nothing but lesbians. "You know how they are, if you have one they bring all their friends."

I looked at her and asked, "Really? You're saying this to me?"

Her response, "Oh, I forget."

Well that's just poor manners on your boss's part. Did she say "Pardon me?" I need to learn from others mistakes but this one is kind of yucky. May I never be as yucky and insensitive as Grenade's boss. I wish you and peace.