What men say about women when they don't know you've lived as a woman

[aishah]

i've definitely been in food service jobs where i heard this shit (and experienced/saw other coworkers experience) sexual harassment on a daily basis by the managers and owners. i'm sure there are some men who wait til i'm out of earshot to say these things but i've been around plenty who, as ender says, have no problem saying it to my face because they can and it's considered socially acceptable.

i tend to take it as par for the course being a sex worker, but within the industry it's much different (and sometimes not as prevalent) because the power dynamics are different compared to other jobs.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by aishah

i've definitely been in food service jobs where i heard this shit (and experienced/saw other coworkers experience) sexual harassment on a daily basis by the managers and owners. i'm sure there are some men who wait til i'm out of earshot to say these things but i've been around plenty who, as ender says, have no problem saying it to my face because they can and it's considered socially acceptable.

The actual article isn't about overt sexual harassment, rather it's the side of men that many women don't know exist. What men say about women (and I suspect other minorities) when it's just other men within earshot. Sex workers don't necessarily experience sexual harassment, but they're privy to the way men talk about their wives, girlfriends and female colleagues.

My husband has warned a couple of early transition FTM's in our social circle to be ready for male 'banter'.

[aishah]

as a sex worker, i haven't actually experienced men talking much about their significant others (oddly enough). the worst thing most men say about their significant others to me is that they wish their significant other looked like me, or looked different, or was more adventurous in bed. i have experienced them talking badly about me behind my back and to my face, but the difference is that i am not at their mercy as i would be in a regular job, so i can just refuse to have them as a client (and sometimes blacklist them to other sex workers).

i get that the article is about what men say when women aren't around...i just (as ender and others have pointed out) am not sure this is necessarily a "hidden" side of men, since many of them are perfectly comfortable saying things like this when we ARE around. perhaps for some women it's a surprise but to most women i know it wouldn't be a surprise because men have said these things to our face.

[Teddybear]

As an FtM who is legally male and how has been in the transportation industy for over 23 yrs I have heard csi-men and women talk trash about the other. Some to the faces of the intended person or persons and some behind their backs.

I find this rude and appalling always have. I dont use a CB in my truck anymore due to this, I just couldnt keep my mouth shut whenever I heard a man trashing a woman or just being plain rude to her. It was easy to do it behind a mic of the CB cause I was anonymous however there was several times that I have been caught "correcting" the other person. Its never a pretty site however I stood my ground and always will.

I dont think its my RESPONSIBILITY as a female born bodied man to correct such behavior but that of a HUMAN being who wants all people to be accepted for who they ARE not who we think they SHOULD be.

I have never really lived as a woman, well IDENTIFIED as one, I was passing for a man years and I mean years prior to actually starting my transition. Im talking back in jr high I would be mistaken for a boy. So how would I go about addressing the issue with another man that once I lived as a woman and IM offended by what you are saying. Why cant I just be offended as a person who has a woman as my mother, who loves women and man who RESPECTS women? To me that is where I need to stand as a human being who wants all to be accepted for who they are and NOT what I think they should be.

For the last 7 years I have had an on going battle to get my parents to see me as their CHILD not JUST their daughter. I havent won the battle but I havent given up who I am either.

I think that all of us in some ways are guilty of some bad behavior towards the opposite gender or expression of their gender. I have caught myself saying things about both men and women when I witness how they are driving or doing something stupid. I may not say it out loud but it does cross my mind. Im not perfect nor will I ever be however I do see this as a fault of mine. Im working on it and have came along way cause I used to scream it at them.

I myself wish that in our ever changing world we as a people, a nation, a global citizen would recognize that each and every person is different is some ways and that is what makes the world a better place and exciting place.

I dont expect change to happen any time soon however I think each of us needs to take a step and keep moving forward towards that change. Maybe by time or grandchildren come along they will have a difference out look on what is gender and how to treat said the opposite genders.

[Teddybear]

Originally Posted by Teddybear

As an FtM who is legally male and how has been in the transportation industy for over 23 yrs I have heard csi-men and women talk trash about the other. Some to the faces of the intended person or persons and some behind their backs.

I find this rude and appalling always have. I dont use a CB in my truck anymore due to this, I just couldnt keep my mouth shut whenever I heard a man trashing a woman or just being plain rude to her. It was easy to do it behind a mic of the CB cause I was anonymous however there was several times that I have been caught "correcting" the other person. Its never a pretty site however I stood my ground and always will.

I dont think its my RESPONSIBILITY as a female born bodied man to correct such behavior but that of a HUMAN being who wants all people to be accepted for who they ARE not who we think they SHOULD be.

I have never really lived as a woman, well IDENTIFIED as one, I was passing for a man years and I mean years prior to actually starting my transition. Im talking back in jr high I would be mistaken for a boy. So how would I go about addressing the issue with another man that once I lived as a woman and IM offended by what you are saying. Why cant I just be offended as a person who has a woman as my mother, who loves women and man who RESPECTS women? To me that is where I need to stand as a human being who wants all to be accepted for who they are and NOT what I think they should be.

For the last 7 years I have had an on going battle to get my parents to see me as their CHILD not JUST their daughter. I havent won the battle but I havent given up who I am either.

I think that all of us in some ways are guilty of some bad behavior towards the opposite gender or expression of their gender. I have caught myself saying things about both men and women when I witness how they are driving or doing something stupid. I may not say it out loud but it does cross my mind. Im not perfect nor will I ever be however I do see this as a fault of mine. Im working on it and have came along way cause I used to scream it at them.

I myself wish that in our ever changing world we as a people, a nation, a global citizen would recognize that each and every person is different is some ways and that is what makes the world a better place and exciting place.

I dont expect change to happen any time soon however I think each of us needs to take a step and keep moving forward towards that change. Maybe by time or grandchildren come along they will have a difference out look on what is gender and how to treat said the opposite genders.

please note I misspelled a word in the 2nd paragraph so please dont rush to judgement I did change it

[Tuff Stuff]

Men mistake me for another guy all the time.There would be this group of guys(me included) and women were always a hot topic.We(women) are blamed for all their headaches.Women have also mistaken me for "another woman" and men were always to be blamed for this or that.The blame game.That's all it is,boring.

I have heard vulgar language used by both sexes,about the female and male anatomy.When you ask them to stop they only get worse.

My 2 cents worth

[AishasWrath]

A lot of men who say these things don't mean it in earnest. Most of the time it's an off-color expression of frustration and a way to desensitize to the awful things in the world, not actual disrespect or misogyny. I've said rude things in private about people I'm angry at, and rude words for various attributes of theirs have been deployed in those moments. It doesn't mean I hate their entire nationality or race or sex.

There are some men who say misogynist things and mean it, but in general nobody thinks highly of them except for their own kind.

That was a conundrum I ran into when living as male, the dual expectation that I imitate that and be punished for it. I had plenty of male friends before and very few of them behaved in the way people expected me to. I started to because I had to, I wasn't in a position to argue or bargain when it was contingent on getting HRT. I overdid it like I was expected to. Nobody liked it. Everyone wanted me to chill out and stop acting like a tool.

Then I overdid it in the opposite direction, and ran into some actual tools who capitalized on my unwillingness to behave as one. I then took some time to re-evaluate life and decided I had to be capable of out-tooling the tools without becoming one. I do it for exercise now and then, in places designated for the performance of toolishness, so if and when the enemy come a-knocking I'll be ready and unintimidated.

[JDeere]

I hear men complain about women regarding things like women are just here for us men to use. Or a woman say that the only reason she is with a man is for his money. Or both sexes talk about each others inadequaticies in the bedroom or in their relationship.

I know I am guilty of these things but when I say things it's due to frustration. Mostly done in private.

[Joe Mario]

Great Topic!

I work with the public for decades and constantly hear all kinds of non-PC crap. Big topic.

A small few (older) male patient/customers have nudged me with crude (sexual) comments about women in the office/ store. The first time this happened, it hurt and stunned me. Now, I maintain my professional composure, but look them directly in the eye with what I term- 'polite disgust' to which they have backed off in embarrassment. I can't imagine not reacting with disgust, just in order to blend in with the mainstream.

Unfortunately, there will always be insensitive, rude and ill-mannered people out there. By reacting in a way to convey that the comment isn't cool is our responsibility. I agree with the others that if the circumstances permit, come-backs regarding their mothers, sisters and daughters seem the best way to hold a mirror to their behavior.

I have also sadly witnessed some of the biggest proponents of mysogyny to be cis/het-women. The thought chain is pathetic, right?
Don't get me started...

[Joe Mario]

PS: The article Quintease linked in post #1 said it best with the term;
"weird version of intimacy" men have.

This idea has been in my thoughts for some time now and relates here.
I am growing more convinced that there are (weird, if you will, and hormonally-related) differences in how bio-males share intimacy.
None of which are "pretty" (ehhh, as it were...)

Being on T has given me, admittedly for the first time, a better understanding of why males do (some) of the things they do.