What attracts you to Ftms ......

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Guy

This is the Trans Zone.

I wouldn't expect to read post about Lesbians in the Trans threads, just as I wouldn't expect to go into the the lesbian Zone and read about Trans or FtM's

This is the Trans zone on a Feminist website.

Some Transmen have lived as Lesbians. Some Lesbians date Transmen.

Many of the Tranmen here are interested in teasing apart their lives as men and the intersections of Feminist principles with where they have come from and where they are going. Some Transmen are Feminists.

We're interconnected.

I'm not sure what you mean by "reading posts about Lesbians" but posts about women and the oppression of women are not the same as posts about Lesbians.

[DMW]

Originally Posted by Guy

This is the Trans Zone.

I wouldn't expect to read post about Lesbians in the Trans threads, just as I wouldn't expect to go into the the lesbian Zone and read about Trans or FtM's

With this, as a transman, i have to say...i agree with the sentiment. I understand this because.. it kind of feels like a violation of what should be
considered a safe space for transmen to share themselves without feeling picked apart by others that do not necessarily agree with how we feel or what we need or what we desire.
I also, understand that we are all sharing the same space and i have,myself, violated butch or femme spaces. I am not saying i feel victimized but, maybe there is a better space for certain posts or threads.

Originally Posted by Medusa

This is the Trans zone on a Feminist website.

Some Transmen have lived as Lesbians. Some Lesbians date Transmen.

Many of the Tranmen here are interested in teasing apart their lives as men and the intersections of Feminist principles with where they have come from and where they are going. Some Transmen are Feminists.

We're interconnected.

I'm not sure what you mean by "reading posts about Lesbians" but posts about women and the oppression of women are not the same as posts about Lesbians.

This too, i agree with. I must say, however, personally, as a transman, i never identified as a lesbian because to me that felt like "girl" being labeled or forced to identify as a "girl" which was forced on me enough throughout my personal evolution. Thank God I had my boundaries and my limits though. So, i am personally offended by being called girl or lesbian just because i am who i am. And i had to fight for that as a child growing up...and then later in my life.
There is no need for an apology from anyone. It is just how i feel personally.
I am sure that not all Transmen feel the way i do. So, to each his own really.
Additionally, i do NOT think of the words "girl or lesbian" in a derogatory or demeaning way.
I love women. Most of them anyway.

I have been told by partners and women who know me well that i am more of a feminists than they are. The oppression of women is unacceptable...Oppression of anyone is acceptable really.
Unless, those people have done something
to harm others or they continue to be harmful to society at large....

I am one that needs to be careful about what and how i write here. I do not
write as well as i used to. So, i know that i have offended people here. I don't mean to.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by DMW

So, i am personally offended by being called girl or lesbian just because i am who i am. There is no need for an apology. It is just how i feel personally.
.

Dmw- Did you read me as saying that you, DMW, are a girl or a lesbian?

[DMW]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Dmw- Did you read me as saying that you, DMW, are a girl or a lesbian?

No, not at all. That is why i said that there was no need for an apology from anyone. I am and was not offended by what you said. I guess to clarify...i was speaking in general,personal, terms. I don't feel that you were calling me girl or lesbian. I am trying to point out my personal feelings regarding being a transman. I never identified with being lesbian is all that i was, and am, trying to explain or convey.

[Medusa]

Brutal - I liked what you just said about having walked and lived as a Female.

I think that was the crux of what makes us acccessible to each other is that we all honor what we have as a shared context. While some folks on this site don't identify as female on any level, I would say that 100% of the folks on this site were either born as female, raised as a female, or have lived as females at some point in their lives.

That is one of the pieces of glue that makes us recognizeable to each other.

I appreciate that you are willing to share that part of yourself rather than shut it down or act like it never existed. It goes a long, LONG way in helping us understand one another!!

[Medusa]

Wanted to edit this to my last post but will just add here:

I also think what you said about this site being different neighborhoods of a sort is valuable. The different threads we have here go a long way in helping contain conversations and act like neighborhoods in a city where we have all agreed to live (by posting here).

I do think that we can sometimes hear the next block over having a party and want to join in. Especially if they are playing good music or arguing about who's cat craps on who's lawn. I do think there is a reason that a lot of Transmen might choose to hang out on this site versus go to a site that is exclusively for Transmen and it might go back to that whole shared context thing. Because not only have some Transmen lived as women, but some of them (and a great many of them on this site) have lived as Butches.

The thing I have seen in threads over the years is that if Femmes are having a thread about something specific to them, let's say Femme invisibility, people of other genders are pretty good about policing themselves out of the discussion. I do think that folks of other genders would chime in if one of the Femmes posted something like "I feel more invisible around Transmen and here's why". A Transman might read that and think "oh bull shit" or they might want to engage simply for understanding.

I hope you guys don't feel intruded upon. This conversation has been so valuable and has really helped a lot of folks (me included!) and further than that, I hope that it doesnt feel like an intrusion when folks call out problematic stuff but rather we can look at is as an opportunity to learn from one another.

[BrutalDaddy]

Originally Posted by Medusa

Brutal - I liked what you just said about having walked and lived as a Female.

I think that was the crux of what makes us acccessible to each other is that we all honor what we have as a shared context. While some folks on this site don't identify as female on any level, I would say that 100% of the folks on this site were either born as female, raised as a female, or have lived as females at some point in their lives.

That is one of the pieces of glue that makes us recognizeable to each other.

I appreciate that you are willing to share that part of yourself rather than shut it down or act like it never existed. It goes a long, LONG way in helping us understand one another!!

No matter the fact that I feel 100% male, I was born in a female body. There is no denying that and personally it would be stupid to deny it. Denying that about myself would simply be denying who I am now, the journey I've taken to get to where I am now. To get to this place, literally and figuratively. No amount of surgery will ever erase that nor do I want it to.

It's kind of like my one undeniable link to this place, to these people. Sometimes I feel like I'm trapped between two worlds, never truly a part of either. So no matter how embarrassing or shameful some of my past as a female is to me, I still will not deny that I was. If I did then there would be no connection for me and honestly, that thought scares me sometimes.

The only thing I would ever ask in return when sharing this part of myself is that I am seen as who I see myself. A man. I rarely let folks peek into me like this because I have watched their view of me change while I spoke of having lived as a female. Suddenly they can't seem to shake this female version of me and so the male side of me becomes less noticeable. Weird huh?

Wow, I'm seriously rambling now. Sorry folks. That's all I gots for now. So I'll quit boring y'all. Lol.


Done I Think,
Brute.

P.S. The entire post above is completely from my ME place. I can not claim that other FTMs or trans folk feel same way I do. Thanks.

P.S.S. Just read your new post, Medusa and wanted to say that for me, I do not feel intrusion for me at all except when I get told that how I live is wrong. That's all.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by BrutalDyke

No matter the fact that I feel 100% male, I was born in a female body. There is no denying that and personally it would be stupid to deny it. Denying that about myself would simply be denying who I am now, the journey I've taken to get to where I am now. To get to this place, literally and figuratively. No amount of surgery will ever erase that nor do I want it to.

It's kind of like my one undeniable link to this place, to these people. Sometimes I feel like I'm trapped between two worlds, never truly a part of either. So no matter how embarrassing or shameful some of my past as a female is to me, I still will not deny that I was. If I did then there would be no connection for me and honestly, that thought scares me sometimes.

The only thing I would ever ask in return when sharing this part of myself is that I am seen as who I see myself. A man. I rarely let folks peek into me like this because I have watched their view of me change while I spoke of having lived as a female. Suddenly they can't seem to shake this female version of me and so the male side of me becomes less noticeable. Weird huh?

Wow, I'm seriously rambling now. Sorry folks. That's all I gots for now. So I'll quit boring y'all. Lol.


Done I Think,
Brute.

P.S. The entire post above is completely from my ME place. I can not claim that other FTMs or trans folk feel same way I do. Thanks.

P.S.S. Just read your new post, Medusa and wanted to say that for me, I do not feel intrusion for me at all except when I get told that how I live is wrong. That's all.

I don't think I have read a post before that has touched me so.

Brutal, that you own that part of yourself, the female experience (whatever that means to and for you) and chose not to erase it, in spite of the pain that it has caused you in your life; says so much about you as a person.

I admire you greatly for this.

[DMW]

Originally Posted by BrutalDyke

No matter the fact that I feel 100% male, I was born in a female body. There is no denying that and personally it would be stupid to deny it. Denying that about myself would simply be denying who I am now, the journey I've taken to get to where I am now. To get to this place, literally and figuratively. No amount of surgery will ever erase that nor do I want it to.

It's kind of like my one undeniable link to this place, to these people. Sometimes I feel like I'm trapped between two worlds, never truly a part of either. So no matter how embarrassing or shameful some of my past as a female is to me, I still will not deny that I was. If I did then there would be no connection for me and honestly, that thought scares me sometimes.

The only thing I would ever ask in return when sharing this part of myself is that I am seen as who I see myself. A man. I rarely let folks peek into me like this because I have watched their view of me change while I spoke of having lived as a female. Suddenly they can't seem to shake this female version of me and so the male side of me becomes less noticeable. Weird huh?

Wow, I'm seriously rambling now. Sorry folks. That's all I gots for now. So I'll quit boring y'all. Lol.


Done I Think,
Brute.

P.S. The entire post above is completely from my ME place. I can not claim that other FTMs or trans folk feel same way I do. Thanks.

P.S.S. Just read your new post, Medusa and wanted to say that for me, I do not feel intrusion for me at all except when I get told that how I live is wrong. That's all.

Brutal, i read this and i had to stop right there...because i have an issue with a word that you used in your post.Shame. One word. I did not want to respond to your post here, in public, how i felt or why i was bothered by it.
First, because i didn't (and don't now) want to hurt your feelings, or embarrass you, or take away from the true heartfelt feelings that you had to share with everyone here. I thank you for what you shared.

Two, because it is so personal and i appreciate how difficult it can be to open up to a public forum. Lastly, i wanted other people to hear the important parts of your message and what you had to convey and i didn't want to stir the pot unecessarily. You said it so well and i didn't
want to take away from the positive response that you received or draw away from that attention. (just for my beef with the one word.) I still don't want the attention or the work it takes to follow up on posts.

I share many similar feelings. I will not claim them to be the same as yours because i want to be clear that these are just my personal feelings.

it is a fact, for me, that the denial of my past is not congruent with the whole of who i really am today. Therefore, for me, it can be such a struggle, sometimes, to whip my cock out to perfect strangers and then be frustrated as to why the hell it should matter to anyone other than a woman i would be intimate with. In some cases it does matter.i.e. for personal safety...is one reason. There are different reasons why i do come out to the public.

However, it usually has to be decided or when and if i feel that it is necessary. The word shame bothers me because I personally am not ashamed of who i was as a butch or a girl growing up. nor, am i ashamed of being an FTM. I wasn't in control of how i was born
I don't believe you are ashamed either because of what you posted. And i am not going to assume that you are ashamed that you were once female.
I am not sure.

Shame is not a good word to use. Nor, is it a good feeling. To me, the word shame implies blame. As if, i should be ashamed of who i once was because i was female. And to be ashamed of who i was...would imply that i should be ashamed of who i am now.
In addition, shame could imply that i have done something wrong. And i have not done anything wrong when it comes to me and my own evolution. And i wholeheartedly refute that with a passion. And to be honest, sometimes this is reason enough to come out to the public or a person. Also, being female is not something to be ashamed of either. So, that also has to be explained and defended. It isn't easy either.

Embarrassed or shy to come out to the public or to a person...is another word and emotion entirely.

I hope that I have not offended you by sharing my feelings here, if i have...i will apologize in advance. And thank you for sharing Brutal. I just don't want you to be ashamed or to own that shame. It is not yours to own. Nor mine.

DMW

And talk about derailing a thread...i have drerailed this thread myself. SHeeet.

[BrutalDaddy]

I too can see where Guy was coming from. Maybe just not worded like that. For me, because I do get that this site, as a whole, is a space for ALL folks of the queer/gay/feminist/trans way of life.

Kinda like having a subdivision among a city. Each having their own "subdivision" to go to when wanting to be around folks who are even more like them than in general.

As much as I know society (if society would allow me the pleasure of being male, which it doesn't) could and would label me a "straight male" once I am able to fully transition, I don't think I could ever see myself or feel like a straight/heterosexual male. Reason being is because I have walked in the shoes of being female. Not just female bodied but female mind too because I was sort of a late bloomer. Lol. I didn't know or understand about transitioning, FTMs, hormone therapy, surgeries, etc. until a few years back. I honestly and truly believed I was just fucked up inside when it came to being okay with myself. Like wires got crossed when I was being born.

So for years I walked as a female. Whether by choice or just plain cause I had no choice, I did it. Now I find myself sometimes being "overly male" to make up for all the years I had to be female. Yes, that falls back to societial teachings put upon me as a child. I work on it daily.

I guess the reason I just verbally spilled all the above is to simply say I have no issues with female ided butches coming into my "subdivision" to talk nor do I have an issue going into their "subdivision" (they might though! Lol). Because I feel like even though I am FTM, I belong in some sense because I have walked that journey. I know what its like on both sides of the aisle. Only time I feel intrusion is if I get told that the way I choose to live my life with my wife is wrong because it perpetuates isms and oppressions. Really? I know history. Hell my wife has a degree in history so what I don't know, she does. Lol. I just want to live our life as we both want to and others live their life as they see fit. That's all.

Anyway, I've blabbered enough I think and will finish this now because there is some fucking idiot trucker standing over my shoulder wanting to know what kinda book am I writing. He's even trying to read this!


Totally Rude Truckers Out There,
Brute.

P.S. If I don't make much sense please excuse me. I'm in middle of a truck stop with folks walking all around me and one really REALLY nosey driver who thinks it's okay to read folks' private shit. So if you need clarification, will give it soon as I can.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by BrutalDyke

Anyway, I've blabbered enough I think and will finish this now because there is some fucking idiot trucker standing over my shoulder wanting to know what kinda book am I writing. He's even trying to read this!


Totally Rude Truckers Out There,
Brute.

Total and complete derail alert.


LOL!! Tell him you are writing an article about penis transplant. Does he have one to donate. You even accept the small ones.


God!!

[BrutalDaddy]

Originally Posted by femmsational

Total and complete derail alert.


LOL!! Tell him you are writing an article about penis transplant. Does he have one to donate. You even accept the small ones.


God!!

He'll need a penis transplant if he touches my laptop again.


End Of Derail,
Brute.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by QueenofSmirks

I'm not Medusa- obviously! - but I do have a response to this.

From what I saw, I think what got some feathers ruffled is not the lifestyle and dynamic of your relationship, but rather that that type of lifestyle/dynamic was referred to (by others? - frankly I don't remember the phrase you used) as "50's lifestyle" or "good ole days" -- eras which include a lot of really offensive stuff. As I said in an earlier post, I get what you meant, but I think what you're really saying is you live a representational segment of another time (i.e. traditional binary gender roles), not a lifestyle that represents that whole time period. It's easier just to say "the 50's",but that can be a misrepresentation of what you really meant.

I'm not condoning people jumping all over your ass for it, I do think there is a better way to have a discussion, with clearer language.

Edited to add: I don't think anyone has the right to define for anyone else the dynamic of their relationship,or make judgments on it, regardless of how "wrong" they think it is. To each their own. I also agree that blanket statements suck, and ideals and values and descriptions should never be applied across the board to any group, as others have stated, i.e. "a real man does x, a real femme does y."

QueenofSmirks, I think you get the gist of what some people find troubling, but I would like to know where anyone jumped anyone's ass and where the language is not clear- because I am certainly not seeing it.

The discussion about the good ole June Cleaver days starts on page 8. I have re-read from that point and see nothing.

I see people being very clear about what they object to and very clear that they are not attacking anyone or their relationship. This is where my big frustration lies- when people do make a very big effort to be specific and clear and we are told we are not and we are told we are attacking people.

Originally Posted by BrutalDyke

I guess the reason I just verbally spilled all the above is to simply say I have no issues with female ided butches coming into my "subdivision" to talk nor do I have an issue going into their "subdivision" (they might though! Lol). Because I feel like even though I am FTM, I belong in some sense because I have walked that journey. I know what its like on both sides of the aisle. Only time I feel intrusion is if I get told that the way I choose to live my life with my wife is wrong because it perpetuates isms and oppressions. Really? I know history. Hell my wife has a degree in history so what I don't know, she does. Lol. I just want to live our life as we both want to and others live their life as they see fit. That's all.

Brutal, I bolded part of your post. Where specifically has that happened?

Medusa, not sure if your p.s was aimed at me, but I repped you instead of posting because your Moderating post said this discussion should be moved to another thread, so I didn't think I was allowed to comment. Now it appears the discussion is continuing.

[Nomad]

another thing i appreciate about FtMs is that many of them are exploring and expressing masculinity in a very aware and 21st century way that many cis-males my age might not.

many butches are doing the same kind of mindful exploration. so are many femmes and many non-gender fixated people. so are many people of any and every gender and identity. i'm so afraid to post in this damn thread because i might accidentally exclude someone or offend someone because i cant think of every word that's necessary in order to avoid pissing someone off that it's just not enjoyable anymore.


***please assume the automatic "i am not trying to be an asshead" disclaimer***

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Nomad

another thing i appreciate about FtMs is that many of them are exploring and expressing masculinity in a very aware and 21st century way that many cis-males my age might not.

many butches are doing the same kind of mindful exploration. so are many femmes and many non-gender fixated people. so are many people of any and every gender and identity. i'm so afraid to post in this damn thread because i might accidentally exclude someone or offend someone because i cant think of every word that's necessary in order to avoid pissing someone off that it's just not enjoyable anymore.


***please assume the automatic "i am not trying to be an asshead" disclaimer***

I feel the same way. LOL!! It would be funny if it were not so NOT funny!!!

[BrutalDaddy]

Would like to add one more thing if I may.

It can get hard for me sometimes because if I go to a place/subdivision where it is exclusively about femmes (as example) then I will post about femmes and leave out the rest of the rainbow, so to speak. If someone gets all pissy because I left out a group then I see that as being on them. Not me. I am visiting a "subdivision" that is all about the femmes. If I visit a "subdivision" that's about the FTMs then I'll post about them and usually them alone. Same goes for female ided butches, etc.

I live in a world that is too politically correct for my taste so when I come here, I try to make damn sure that where I'm posting (the subdivision) is exclusive to that part of the rainbow. If I try to include everyone, I'll spend all damn day typing and more inlikely forget someone. Lol. While I know and understand exclusion, I don't see it as such considering it's about a specific group and not the rainbow as a whole.

So Nomad, thank you for your post because it brought that thought up and wanted to share it. Thanks.


Food For Thought,
Brute.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by BrutalDyke

Would like to add one more thing if I may.

It can get hard for me sometimes because if I go to a place/subdivision where it is exclusively about femmes (as example) then I will post about femmes and leave out the rest of the rainbow, so to speak. If someone gets all pissy because I left out a group then I see that as being on them. Not me. I am visiting a "subdivision" that is all about the femmes. If I visit a "subdivision" that's about the FTMs then I'll post about them and usually them alone. Same goes for female ided butches, etc.


yes. this was my original thought too. i'm not excluding anyone. i'm commenting on the topic at hand.

I live in a world that is too politically correct for my taste so when I come here, I try to make damn sure that where I'm posting (the subdivision) is exclusive to that part of the rainbow. If I try to include everyone, I'll spend all damn day typing and more inlikely forget someone. Lol. While I know and understand exclusion, I don't see it as such considering it's about a specific group and not the rainbow as a whole.

yes. it's exhausting to worry about who's going to be pissed because i didnt include them. it's equally maddening to find that there's an assumption that i'm doing something purposely when i've simply made a mistake or a misstep.


So Nomad, thank you for your post because it brought that thought up and wanted to share it. Thanks.


Food For Thought,
Brute.

me in blue

and thanks for sharing your thoughts. i appreciate your clearer version of my own scattered and somewhat whiny post

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Nomad

another thing i appreciate about FtMs is that many of them are exploring and expressing masculinity in a very aware and 21st century way that many cis-males my age might not.

many butches are doing the same kind of mindful exploration. so are many femmes and many non-gender fixated people. so are many people of any and every gender and identity. i'm so afraid to post in this damn thread because i might accidentally exclude someone or offend someone because i cant think of every word that's necessary in order to avoid pissing someone off that it's just not enjoyable anymore.


***please assume the automatic "i am not trying to be an asshead" disclaimer***

Stuff like this, the whole I am afraid of X Y Z just because their opinion is different is unfair.


It paints people in a negative, ugly, tone and it's flaming the situation.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Stuff like this, the whole I am afraid of X Y Z just because their opinion is different is unfair.


It paints people in a negative, ugly, tone and it's flaming the situation.

Yet, if it's felt by more than one person, and expressed respectfully...should we maybe look at that? Tease that out a bit??

Curious really.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Stuff like this, the whole I am afraid of X Y Z just because their opinion is different is unfair.


It paints people in a negative, ugly, tone and it's flaming the situation.

this is completely fair. thank you for pointing it out Lady Snow. i did not intend to create negative or ugly circumstances. my tone was not inflammatory in my head. (is it ever?)

you've given me the chance to consider my state of mind when i made that post. i wasnt feeling singled out or disagreed with or attacked. i did not mean to indicate that anyone was being unfair with regard to something i'd said, done, expressed or otherwise. i was actually worried about not being clear or thought of as disrespectful if i wasnt all inclusive because i sometimes feel that that's the way the threads are leaning.

i should have said that i am nervous, rather than afraid --- nervous to be seen as being excluding or othering if i dont include everyone in the things i appreciate about FtMs. i have felt recently that there are those who mistake things like "I like ABC about unicorns" as an indication that the poster didnt think or acknowledge that zebras and tortoises also did ABC. if the forum is dedicated to unicorns, i comment about unicorns. it doesnt mean that i dont also love zebras.

thank you for rattling my cage. i like it when people do that. and for the record, i've never been afraid of You. inspired, yes. unsettled, yes. challenged, yes. treated fairly, yes. verklempt, yes. hot and bothered, yes. but never even once afraid.