June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[The_Lady_Snow]

Do you ever want to be a woman of color?

[blush]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Do you ever want to be a woman of color?

Yes. The actress from Modern Family, Claire Huxtable...

I'm jealous of the seemingly effortless power those women embody.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by blush

I wonder why we hold up a white male fantasy as any kind of definition of femme.

Oh this is such a good post!!!

Originally Posted by blush

Yes. The actress from Modern Family, Claire Huxtable...

I'm jealous of the seemingly effortless power those women embody.

Wasn't she magnificent? She was such strong woman, and wow could she handle those kids.

Plus i always wished i had been a lawyer. But, even in my day (80s) going into nursing school was more "acceptable" than law school down in these parts and in my own family. Now, don't get me wrong, i love being a nurse, but if i had really truly had a choice? Not so sure i would have picked nursing over law.

But, at least my generation had a choice to even have a career, unlike my mother's generation....

And...

I have a strong wish or more of a "will" i'd say, that the youg'ens growing up today will not have to choose a career path that leads them to what is acceptable, but to become anything...their hearts desire..

[girl_dee]

Sharing is caring.

This is me with my brother. Nope we don't look alike because he is my half-brother from another father.



Here's me, full submissive pose, (heh) with my brother helping me tie on my kerchief. This set came with all the things little girls played with in my day, a brook, a dustmop and play dishes.

A couple of years later, i wanted to be a pilot. i got a Barbie airplane as i was fascinated with planes. i wanted to pretend to fly the damn thing. Only when i got it, the man pilot was painted in the cockpit and Barbie was to serve the beverages.





i remember thinking, *oh yeah, i can't be a pilot, only men are pilots*

i am glad the kids of today have more options than we did, but we still have light years to go.

Not long ago i was ordering some kids toys, and there were these play sets for 6 year old.

The *boy* set contained a Firefighter hat, a Police Badge, and a hammer and drill.

The *girl* set contained a tiara, a play broom and plastic heels.



Yup we still got a long way to go. i feel who we are as kids strongly molds who we are as adults. We cannot leave it up to the men out there to teach our young girls who and what they are destined to be.

[aishah]

i wanted to share something about why i personally find comparisons to june cleaver and the 50s upsetting.

i know one of the things people often say when this stuff comes up is, "well, it's just what i like! i shouldn't get a history lesson shoved down my throat every time i talk about it!"

to me, that is a function of privilege. to be able to look at the 50s and just focus on a relationship dynamic or on the fact that people supposedly had better manners then or whatever is a huge privilege.

when i look at the 50s i think about boarding schools, sterilization, institutionalization, and lynching, for starters. the only way i can wrap my head around being able to look at the 50s and think june cleaver is awesome and people were nicer and you don't need a history lesson is because...well...your family didn't go through that. or if you were in the 50s now you wouldn't be going through that. maybe i am totally off base.

the ability to willfully ignore that history is a function of privilege. and that's why, when people start romanticizing the 50s, history is brought up. because some of us don't have the luxury of thinking of the 50s out of the context of some really traumatic history. and that history continues to shape current oppressive policies and systems.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by aishah

i wanted to share something about why i personally find comparisons to june cleaver and the 50s upsetting.

i know one of the things people often say when this stuff comes up is, "well, it's just what i like! i shouldn't get a history lesson shoved down my throat every time i talk about it!"

to me, that is a function of privilege. to be able to look at the 50s and just focus on a relationship dynamic or on the fact that people supposedly had better manners then or whatever is a huge privilege.

when i look at the 50s i think about boarding schools, sterilization, institutionalization, and lynching, for starters. the only way i can wrap my head around being able to look at the 50s and think june cleaver is awesome and people were nicer and you don't need a history lesson is because...well...your family didn't go through that. or if you were in the 50s now you wouldn't be going through that. maybe i am totally off base.

the ability to willfully ignore that history is a function of privilege. and that's why, when people start romanticizing the 50s, history is brought up. because some of us don't have the luxury of thinking of the 50s out of the context of some really traumatic history. and that history continues to shape current oppressive policies and systems.

Oh Aishah i love you girl did you know that!!!

You hit the nail on the head.

Also, we are making changes and clearing paths even if it is just with discussing things and opening up "minds" here and elsewhere. Just as the June Cleavers before us did, just as the next generation will continue to do.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by aishah

i wanted to share something about why i personally find comparisons to june cleaver and the 50s upsetting.

i know one of the things people often say when this stuff comes up is, "well, it's just what i like! i shouldn't get a history lesson shoved down my throat every time i talk about it!"

to me, that is a function of privilege. to be able to look at the 50s and just focus on a relationship dynamic or on the fact that people supposedly had better manners then or whatever is a huge privilege.

when i look at the 50s i think about boarding schools, sterilization, institutionalization, and lynching, for starters. the only way i can wrap my head around being able to look at the 50s and think june cleaver is awesome and people were nicer and you don't need a history lesson is because...well...your family didn't go through that. or if you were in the 50s now you wouldn't be going through that. maybe i am totally off base.

the ability to willfully ignore that history is a function of privilege. and that's why, when people start romanticizing the 50s, history is brought up. because some of us don't have the luxury of thinking of the 50s out of the context of some really traumatic history. and that history continues to shape current oppressive policies and systems.

okay. so i'm asking for a teaching moment.

what then do i do about my "lifestyle preference"? do i just shut up about it? i'm not being snarky. i honestly want to see options for altering my participation that do not deminish or negate the experiences of others. i dont personally romanticize the 50s. i've never referred to myself as June Cleaver. i dont give a rats ass about June Cleaver except as the representation of a cultural mindset that deserves to feel the full weight of its shame. if someone tried to make me into a 50s version of June Cleaver they would be deprived of my consent. the minute someone treats my service as an obligation my submission switch turns to OFF. i recognize my privilege. i GET TO say "no" and have it be ok. it's the luxury you say it is. i acknowledge it as such. i also acknowledge that i've stopped defending myself, my preferences, my "kink" and everything else that powers my panties, my heart, my ego and my general happiness. i have decades of shame, planted in childhood, around who i am and what i want. i'd like to think that i could take defending myself off the table when i'm having a discussion about an issue that touches on my identity performance. let me be clear, i do not feel attacked or disrespected. i do not feel disrespect toward anyone participating in this discussion. i feel curiosity and interest and a some pain at reading about the experiences i dont have to cope with and i feel a sincere desire to open up my head about the way i communicate and engage in respectful dialogue with people who do and dont share my privilege.

do you have the energy (and you dont have to) to help me out with ways of participating from an authentic and honest place without derailing this amazing conversation? i have no desire to come from a "i''m so misunderstood" place and i do not identify with June Cleaver as a role model or hold her up as one for others. June Cleaver aint Femme. June Cleaver is an illusion that contributed to both the active and passive marginalization OF A LOT OF PEOPLE, not all of them women. i dont have a single solitary cell in me that wants to be her. but i am a service oriented submissive and the language available to me, at a certain less aware time in my life, was the "50s lifestyle" label. i guess i fixated on the word "lifestyle" as the indication that there was something there that should imply illusution, namely because i dont have a lifestyle. i have a life. so anything i do in that LIFE that is mimicry of the 50s (or anything else i might use to fill in the blanks when describing myself) is MY version of myself, not someone elses. i'm not diminished by someone who might see me as less than themselves. that says something about them, not about me. but again, i'm coming from a place of privilege and i know that. i have the luxury of standing that ground with some attitude. but i would like to stand that ground as an individual rather than as a stereotype and i would like to back other people up when they stand their ground, whatever that ground may be. i would like to know ways of authentically and honestly participating in this discussion, coming from my own place, without having that place be perceived as romanticization of the 50s or a purposeful negation of the expression and experiences of others.

June Cleaver aint Femme. June Cleaver aint shit. this discussion, right here, THIS is Femme.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Nomad, I feel the irritation, anger, dismissal when June Cleaver is held as a Femme role model. It's not the kink/dynamics/role playing that is the issue.

[princessbelle]

I know you didn't ask me Nomad but i'm going to still tell you my view since i agree with Aishah....

From MY viewpoint, i only get my panties twirling when someone says something like...

"The 50s were the best era we ever had"
"We don't have manners now like we did in the 50s"
"I wish we could go back and have lives like we did in the 50s"
"June Cleaver was the perfect femme"

On the flip side if someone says...

"I enjoy living my life as June Cleaver"
"I want my partner to be just like June Cleaver"
"I love being a housewife"

I have no problem with that whatsoever. Gosh, why would i even care? To each his/hys/her own.

I don't care how anyone lives their life. The difference is ...we have choices as to how to live our lives in 2012. Thanks to the women before us. The ones that stood up for women and women's rights and minority rights and and and... We didn't in the 1950s

There is a difference here. One that i have been not great, evidently, of conveying.

Not sure i still am. Just don't know how to explain it any better.

[aishah]

nomad, i can't tell you what you should do. i can tell you what i try to do in my own life. i can tell you some of how i think things could go differently in these kinds of conversations (having seen at least 3 of them here on the planet and a few elsewhere).

please forgive me because i'm having trouble getting across really what i want to express in a clear and concise way. so i'm hoping that this will at least...paint something of a picture. i just don't have the right words. and this might get super long.

in my own life, i try to actively interrogate my desires and figure out where my desires and choices are coming from. i'm not implying that anyone here hasn't done that - i'm sure you and others have. for me that's a big part of how i come to characterize what i desire and what i love doing and what my role is. some things i've become conscious of - i tend to end up with straight bio-men a lot and i think some of that is because of internalized homophobia and because of the fact that i often pass as straight/have mad femme invisibility going on. i also tend to end up with white people a lot and i have recognized that maybe some of that is internalized racism and colonialism on my part. the more i interrogate those things in my own life, i see new worlds opening up to me - both in terms of externally how i interact and internally with my self-awareness. when i first became involved in bdsm, i identified very strongly with the term "slave," and as i came to interrogate how i felt about that, i personally chose to stop using that term because it squicked me out. as a person with a disability, i try to actively be conscious about who i'm dating and what the privileges are around ability, and especially to not unconsciously isolate people who have more access needs or more advanced disabilities from my life as dating partners. because most of the dating scene self-selects for people who are more able-bodied. same goes for beauty/appearance. when i am in power exchange relationships, i am much more aware now of the ways in which privilege affects power dynamics - like, for me as an indigenous disabled woman to submit to an able-bodied white male doesn't come without a lot of (usually unexamined) baggage. doesn't mean i never play with able-bodied white men (though i have many friends who choose not to) but as i've interrogated these issues more and more over time and examined what the dynamics look like, i've been more able to recognize and address the ways that my relationships replicate patterns of privilege and oppression that are really harmful.

those are some examples of how i practice interrogating my own desires and trying to root out how privilege and oppression shape my desires.

what i wish would be different when people start talking about service submission is - i wish we could leave the goddamned 1950s out of it. or at least, if we are going to mention the 1950s at all, to do so with a framework that is critical and takes into account the whole and complex history, not just the upper class white people history. i wish people wouldn't say things like "people had much better manners then!" "those were the good old days!" i love baking and cooking and cleaning. i love homemaking. if i weren't poor and if i could have kids, i'd probably be a very happy homemaker. but i don't need to look at the 1950s and idealize the 1950s - and i can't idealize them for many reasons i've already said. there are a LOT of ways to characterize service submission without deferring to a time period that was even more overtly pervaded with white supremacy, ableism, colonialism, and misogyny/partriarchy than the time period we live in now. and honestly, i think it's a good idea for people who are into service submission to interrogate how patriarchy and other issues have shaped their desires, but that's just me. i wish that people - and not just me and snow (and i am super grateful for folks like belle and bully who speak up on these threads too) would speak up and say that the 1950s should NOT be the yardstick by which we talk about service submission. or homemaking. because that's whitewashing and it's oppressive and it's a million different kinds of fucked up. i wish we would get the categories changed on sites like collarme where "1950s lifestyle" is something you can choose as a kink. because the things that non-white and poor people went through in the 50s are not kinks. they are crimes against humanity. i wish i could go to a munch and not be the only non-white, non-upper class person in the room and not have to sit through discussions on how awesome the 1950s lifestyle is and not feel excluded because i don't live a very heteronormative life.

i wish - and i don't want to say this in a directive way or offend anyone by saying this - but i really wish that people would not say "oh, i love the june cleaver lifestyle!" or "oh, i love a femme who loves the june cleaver lifestyle!" i can't explain to you why it hurts more to see a butch write that, because i'm attracted to both butches and femmes, but it hurts me when butches and transguys point to straight women and call them femmes or speak of them as femme icons or say that they want a femme who does those things. i don't want to be compared to june cleaver. maybe i should just be grateful that it's a good way to weed people out - like - i guess i can assume we won't see eye to eye so i might as well not bother pursuing anything with someone if they think that way. but it sucks to come here and read posts like that. it makes me feel disrespected as a femme. (your mileage may vary and i'm not saying everyone needs to do what i want - i'm just saying - that's how it makes me feel. ~ edited to add: i think part of this for me is that i'm squicked anytime someone says stuff like that...like...i don't want to be compared to angelina jolie anymore than i want to be compared to june cleaver. i want someone to want -me.- for who -i- am.)

i wish that we could have these conversations without people saying things about feeling policed when poc bring up issues of privilege and oppression. i'm not sure if there is something that i could do differently as far as how i respond to posts to make people feel less attacked or policed - or if it is just another replication of the fucked up "scary woman of color" derail all over again. but i wish we could address issues of privilege and oppression without anyone feeling silenced.

i am so, so, so very happy that people are able to look at things and make choices about what they want and choose certain ways of being without feeling coerced. i remember when i covered for several years that for me that was a huge part of my decision - for me covering wasn't heteronormative because it was claiming my identity as a queer muslim woman. it was coming home to myself and my body. BUT...i also had to interrogate the privileges i had to make that choice without feeling coerced, and the fact that i made that choice with less or different kinds of baggage/history attached to covering than many women who were raised muslim or from other countries. i had to interrogate the fact that that decision is tied to a patriarchal history even though women of all backgrounds now do their best to make free decisions themselves to cover. i had to interrogate the fact that as a lightskinned u.s. citizen, for me to wear a headscarf or a face veil would be a totally different experience than perhaps that of an immigrant with darker skin. perhaps that is a good parallel to this situation. i am so, so happy that there are people who can freely make the choice to live a lifestyle of service submission. but i think that it is good to be conscious and critical and investigate (especially when the 1950s are brought up) all of the things that tie into that, historically and presently, particularly race, class and ability issues.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Nomad

okay. so i'm asking for a teaching moment.

what then do i do about my "lifestyle preference"? do i just shut up about it? i'm not being snarky. i honestly want to see options for altering my participation that do not deminish or negate the experiences of others. i dont personally romanticize the 50s. i've never referred to myself as June Cleaver. i dont give a rats ass about June Cleaver except as the representation of a cultural mindset that deserves to feel the full weight of its shame. if someone tried to make me into a 50s version of June Cleaver they would be deprived of my consent. the minute someone treats my service as an obligation my submission switch turns to OFF. i recognize my privilege. i GET TO say "no" and have it be ok. it's the luxury you say it is. i acknowledge it as such. i also acknowledge that i've stopped defending myself, my preferences, my "kink" and everything else that powers my panties, my heart, my ego and my general happiness. i have decades of shame, planted in childhood, around who i am and what i want. i'd like to think that i could take defending myself off the table when i'm having a discussion about an issue that touches on my identity performance. let me be clear, i do not feel attacked or disrespected. i do not feel disrespect toward anyone participating in this discussion. i feel curiosity and interest and a some pain at reading about the experiences i dont have to cope with and i feel a sincere desire to open up my head about the way i communicate and engage in respectful dialogue with people who do and dont share my privilege.

do you have the energy (and you dont have to) to help me out with ways of participating from an authentic and honest place without derailing this amazing conversation? i have no desire to come from a "i''m so misunderstood" place and i do not identify with June Cleaver as a role model or hold her up as one for others. June Cleaver aint Femme. June Cleaver is an illusion that contributed to both the active and passive marginalization OF A LOT OF PEOPLE, not all of them women. i dont have a single solitary cell in me that wants to be her. but i am a service oriented submissive and the language available to me, at a certain less aware time in my life, was the "50s lifestyle" label. i guess i fixated on the word "lifestyle" as the indication that there was something there that should imply illusution, namely because i dont have a lifestyle. i have a life. so anything i do in that LIFE that is mimicry of the 50s (or anything else i might use to fill in the blanks when describing myself) is MY version of myself, not someone elses. i'm not diminished by someone who might see me as less than themselves. that says something about them, not about me. but again, i'm coming from a place of privilege and i know that. i have the luxury of standing that ground with some attitude. but i would like to stand that ground as an individual rather than as a stereotype and i would like to back other people up when they stand their ground, whatever that ground may be. i would like to know ways of authentically and honestly participating in this discussion, coming from my own place, without having that place be perceived as romanticization of the 50s or a purposeful negation of the expression and experiences of others.

June Cleaver aint Femme. June Cleaver aint shit. this discussion, right here, THIS is Femme.

Do you have the time, interest, and desire to explore this topic and do your own thinking/research? Or do you expect others to do it for you?

It sounds like you come from an honest place and other viewpoints are always helpful, but really, the hard work has to come from you. It can be an exhausting expectation for others to educate you.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Do you ever want to be a woman of color?

nope. i like it easy. i am not proud of the suffering of others at the white man's hand, because i am white. i am ashamed actually, but wouldn't want to trade places with a person of color. i have always admired the power of Latina women. My Latina friend told me she would never marry a Latina man because they expected the women to do it all. My niece married a Latina man and his family was pretty much in shock when she expected him to help with the child raising and housework.

without doing the *my best friend is a POC* i will say...


i grew up with and have had lots of POC in my life. My best friend as a kid was Hector from Mexico. i often thought it was cool that his dad didn't do the disciplining, his mom did. They ate cool food and gave me my first taco. i learned what home made tortillas were and he learned what a beignet was. i also knew that no matter how little we had, they had less. Our moms were best friends and we would go to the church to pick up boxes of food for them. i knew then i was lucky to be who i was. Privilege without realizing what it was.

Growing up people i worked and played with were mostly POC, and some people from Cuba, Guatemala, Mexico and Honduras, then when the Vietnam was over we received thousands of Vietnamese folks in our area. Thinking about it i think we were the only white folks in the neighborhood. Hearing their stories of what real struggle is all about, and not even hitting the tip of the iceberg of what their life is like, has always made me grateful to be born on an easier route in life.

When i was a kid i didn't feel much different from them, we were all just trying to survive, but now i know we are worlds apart. The only thing we really had in common was we lived in a poor neighborhood and didn't have much in the world.

Actually until it was pointed out to me (much on this site) i honestly denied my privilege.

i am now in Canada where i have seen about two POC since i got here. Quite a contrast from where i am from. i am so glad i grew up where i did in a way because i was exposed to all different people my entire life.

[girl_dee]

PS i love the tattoo art

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

Actually until it was pointed out to me (much on this site) i honestly denied my privilege.

ditto

i didnt even know i had privilege until i was in my 30s and after that i squirmed around the topic for a good 5 years because i confused the fact of my privilege with being actively engaged in discrimination. i compared who i was to the racist neighbors we had when i was in high school who were more than happy to exclude us from block parties and etc because my mom's last husband wasnt white. i didnt get it. it was totally asinine behavior that made no sense to me and i couldnt identify with people i openly despised.



embarrasses me now.

[Nomad]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Do you ever want to be a woman of color?

going out on my limb---

when i went to live with my parents, one of the things my mom told me was that i could be anything i wanted to be. (she was white so she had the luxury of telling me that)

i told her i wanted to be a hummingbird or a dragonfly.

it took her a week to drum up the stones to explain that i couldnt be either and i was truly heartbroken because being human isnt the end all and be all to me. frankly, there are times i could give two f*cks about being human at all. she told me, in a nutshell, that i had to limit myself to human being things.

sometime after that someone asked me what i wanted "to be" when i grew up and i said i wanted to be like Mrs Prejean (a teacher at my school). he said, 'oh you want to be a teacher!' and i said, 'no, i want to be a ballerina and a botanist but i want to look like Mrs Prejean because she's the smartest and prettiest lady i know.' so my 6-year old shit hits this guy's fan because Mrs Prejean isnt white.

when i think about her now, through that 6-year old's eyes, she may still be the smartest and prettiest lady i know. the 49-year old remembers her as the person who told my parents i needed glasses and the person who let me read ahead rather than making me wait for the rest of the class and the person who cleaned me up when someone's belligerent, alcoholic father scared the piss out of me (literally) on the playground.

stupid kid story. yeah. i know. do i want to be a woman of color now? WANT? no. i'm too steeped in my privilege. f*ck i dont even know how much privilege i have. but my heart says i'd rather be Mrs Prejean than June Cleaver any day. Mrs Prejean was real.