Infidelity

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by BullDog

A lot of times a butch femme couple is two women, btw or two females,- one is butch and one is femme (not always of course)- so why would straight man/woman "standards" even apply.

Riggggghhhhhhhht

'Cuz butches and femmes nevvvvvvvvvvvvver have heterosexist norms placed on them

I mean, butches are neeevvvvvvvvver equated to men

and femmes are neeeevvvvvvvvvvvver expected to maintain straight ideals of femininity

We should start a thread about it, 'cuz I don't think there's evvvvver been a thread about it


I Must Be Outta My Gourd,
Dylan

P.S. Thanks for the butch-femme primer

[Dylan]

Martina,

I'm talking about celebrities, and I'm talking about butch-femme couples

And I'm talking about Western/U.S.

Yeah, I know the history of women


Dylan

[Dylan]

Besides Christie Brinkley (and her extenuating, melodramatic circumstances)

And now, LeAnn Rimes (is that how you spell it?)

What other celebrity women have cheated on their husbands?

And if a queer woman is in a het marriage, and she decides she wants out of the marriage, but her husband doesn't want out of the marriage yet and refuses to sign the papers...is this woman 'allowed' to follow her queerness and sleep with women? Is that considered 'cheating'?



Dylan

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Besides Christie Brinkley (and her extenuating, melodramatic circumstances)

And now, LeAnn Rimes (is that how you spell it?)

What other celebrity women have cheated on their husbands?

And if a queer woman is in a het marriage, and she decides she wants out of the marriage, but her husband doesn't want out of the marriage yet and refuses to sign the papers...is this woman 'allowed' to follow her queerness and sleep with women? Is that considered 'cheating'?



Dylan

I am surprised that you are under the impression that a woman needs her husband to sign divorce papers to get one. Maybe this still happens in Texas, who knows.

As to other celebrity women, just of the top of my head, Susan Sarandon. But what does this really prove?

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

I am surprised that you are under the impression that a woman needs her husband to sign divorce papers to get one. Maybe this still happens in Texas, who knows.

As to other celebrity women, just of the top of my head, Susan Sarandon. But what does this really prove?

I'll make my logic more clear to you

I'm not speaking of women who CAN divorce, I'm speaking of women who CANNOT (for whatever reason: paperwork, emotional pressure, kids, etc), or feel they cannot get divorced.


Dylan

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Dylan

I'll make my logic more clear to you

I'm not speaking of women who CAN divorce, I'm speaking of women who CANNOT (for whatever reason: paperwork, emotional pressure, kids, etc), or feel they cannot get divorced.


Dylan

I am sorry but I don't need you to clear anything up for me, I am quite capable at understanding logic, even yours.

As a woman who has been through a nasty divorce, one that YOU would qualify in the CANNOT dept. I know for a fact you are wrong. Perhaps when you actually go through one we can exchange logic and facts, till then I would really appreciate you not using your misogynist condescending tone on me, thanks.

PS: You also added; "In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers." And that is why there is such a thing as a legal separation, until such papers are finalized.

[SuperFemme]

women are property and need papers signed to be released? i don't think that is how legal separation works.

so are we only worried about celebrity cheating? because i thought this thread was simply about infidelity. shrugs. anyhoo, here you go:

Denise Richards (not only did she cheat, she screwed her bff's hubby)
Britney Spears (poor poor Justin Timberlake)
Madonna (poor multiple men)
Meg Ryan (Antonio Banderas must have been worth it he's got hot machismo)
Anne Heche (wtf who cheats on Ellen?)
Debra Lafave (with a student no less)
Mary Kay Laterneau (poor boy)

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

women are property and need papers signed to be released? i don't think that is how legal separation works.

so are we only worried about celebrity cheating? because i thought this thread was simply about infidelity. shrugs. anyhoo, here you go:

Denise Richards (not only did she cheat, she screwed her bff's hubby)
Britney Spears (poor poor Justin Timberlake)
Madonna (poor multiple men)
Meg Ryan (Antonio Banderas must have been worth it he's got hot machismo)
Anne Heche (wtf who cheats on Ellen?)
Debra Lafave (with a student no less)
Mary Kay Laterneau (poor boy)

In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers.

Ok, so what about sleeping around during that 2 year separation...'cuz technically One is still married, and One's partner is not agreeing to One's sleeping with others. Is that cheating.

And seriously, I had no idea any of these women had cheated. Well, I miggggght remember something about Denise Richards, but I thought she divorced that fucknut because he's such a fucknut. I don't remember knowing it was a cheating issue.

Who's Mary Kay Laterneau? She's a celebrity? What's she been in?

Who's Debra Lafave?

I thought Anne Heche just went crazy and winded up in someone's back yard. She cheated too?

Meg Ryan cheated? She is/was married?

I do know who Madonna and Britney are, but didn't know they cheated.


Interesting,
Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers.

Ok, so what about sleeping around during that 2 year separation...'cuz technically One is still married, and One's partner is not agreeing to One's sleeping with others. Is that cheating.

And seriously, I had no idea any of these women had cheated. Well, I miggggght remember something about Denise Richards, but I thought she divorced that fucknut because he's such a fucknut. I don't remember knowing it was a cheating issue.

Who's Mary Kay Laterneau? She's a celebrity? What's she been in?

Who's Debra Lafave?

I thought Anne Heche just went crazy and winded up in someone's back yard. She cheated too?

Meg Ryan cheated? She is/was married?

I do know who Madonna and Britney are, but didn't know they cheated.


Interesting,
Dylan

I included off the top of my head famous cheaters and cheaters who became famous.

As for sleeping around during separation? That is usually between a couple and can be very subjective depending on the lunacy of one or the other. When I divorced, sleeping around like a whore in a Navy port was fine.

So yeah. If you don't have a tv use your google powers.

Just because the Reverend doesn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[Dylan]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

I included off the top of my head famous cheaters and cheaters who became famous.

As for sleeping around during separation? That is usually between a couple and can be very subjective depending on the lunacy of one or the other. When I divorced, sleeping around like a whore in a Navy port was fine.

So yeah. If you don't have a tv use your google powers.

Just because the Reverend doesn't know about it doesn't mean it didn't happen.

Thanks for the info. I certainly didn't say it didn't happen...merely said I didn't know about it. Which really isn't all that surprising considering I don't pay attention to celebrity gossip.

Sooooo, would you have slept around like a whore in a Navy port if you hadn't been able to (for whatever reason) get divorced? And if yes, would that have been acceptable? That was really my point.


Dylan

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

women are property and need papers signed to be released? i don't think that is how legal separation works.

so are we only worried about celebrity cheating? because i thought this thread was simply about infidelity. shrugs. anyhoo, here you go:

Denise Richards (not only did she cheat, she screwed her bff's hubby)
Britney Spears (poor poor Justin Timberlake)
Madonna (poor multiple men)
Meg Ryan (Antonio Banderas must have been worth it he's got hot machismo)
Anne Heche (wtf who cheats on Ellen?)
Debra Lafave (with a student no less)
Mary Kay Laterneau (poor boy)

Meg Ryan cheated with Russell Crowe, not Antonio, I think. Either way, she went the way of the manly man.

Originally Posted by Dylan

In some states, a divorce isn't finalized for two years if one party refuses to sign the papers.

Ok, so what about sleeping around during that 2 year separation...'cuz technically One is still married, and One's partner is not agreeing to One's sleeping with others. Is that cheating.

And seriously, I had no idea any of these women had cheated. Well, I miggggght remember something about Denise Richards, but I thought she divorced that fucknut because he's such a fucknut. I don't remember knowing it was a cheating issue.

Who's Mary Kay Laterneau? She's a celebrity? What's she been in?

Who's Debra Lafave?

I thought Anne Heche just went crazy and winded up in someone's back yard. She cheated too?

Meg Ryan cheated? She is/was married?

I do know who Madonna and Britney are, but didn't know they cheated.


Interesting,
Dylan

Mary Kay Laterneau was a teacher that had sex and babies with a student. I believe he was...14 when the first baby was born. She was married and had 4 or 5 kids already.

Anne Heche cheated on Ellen with a man....a camera guy?

[Rope]

Yes, sex addicts need help. Are Tiger Woods or Sandra Bullocks' husband sex addicts? I doubt it. So why do they hold this up as their recovery plan? Because we like our celebrity spokespeople to be squeeky clean and this is all they need to do, come clean seek professional help and *poof they're cured and better in our eyes, right? Rather than call a spade a spade, you cheated, you got caught, that wasn't your original agreement--they turn it into a "medical" problem and that absolves them. The "they" is publicists.

Cheating is cheating--if you suddenly want to run around on your spouse, significant other, girlfriend, boyfriend best be up front and have that talk WAY before another pops into the picture.

As others have said polyamory and open relationships are not about cheating or taking advantage of another person. It takes hard work to have these kind of relationships.

The "one and only" concept works for many and monogomany as polyamory are valid expressions of ones preference for relationships. The holier than thou attitude--I could not stand someone else touching the one I love, or I give them my all and could not share them--interesting commentar y but certainly a little laced with unconscious condescension.

Is monogamy an idea that is fading? I think yes and no, I think lots of people leave relationships immediately after finding a passing fling and they are sorry but the damage is done. Trust is broken and it's incredibly hard to get that back and forgive and forget. I see lots of people think that the goal is monogamy rather than the goal is a healty relationship. I don't think polyamory is for everyone--it takes a lot of work. But think about what you truly want--is dating where you should really be rather than focusing on one person. Dating is for trying on people, trying on relationships--so insisting that the person you're dating should be mongamous with you--that's called a relationship not dating.

Is staying in a relationship with one person until you find the next one healthy? That reminds me of high school relationships--don't break up with one until you've hooked the next one. As if being alone a milisecond isn't possibly the healthiest thing you could do for yourself and ultimately the next relationship.

Rope--

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Martina,

I'm talking about celebrities, and I'm talking about butch-femme couples

And I'm talking about Western/U.S.

Yeah, I know the history of women


Dylan

My reading was that you said there was a double standard for women. i also was talking about the U.S. -- now as well as the past.

What you said was offensive in the extreme. Women DIE in the U.S. every year after they have been accused of infidelity. It's not OK to just not include this fact in the conversation. Why is that so often the case -- that dead and beaten women go uncounted? Why is it not appalling when we do that? Or why, when we notice that we have done it, do we not take a long pause and think about it? It's not what i expect to encounter here. The fact is that misogyny in our community is a huge problem, and this illustrates it.

You KNOW the history of women, but you choose to dole out stereotypes of what people say about men vs what we say about women on an issue that has a bloody past and present for women? You KNOW, but you just don't want to mention that side of it? Please, spare me the stereotypes. i couldn't care less about your anecdotal observations about people's reactions to celebrities. i do take note that you can't be bothered to acknowledge the brutal facts of life as a woman in this culture.

Once again, Dylan, your misogyny is showing. Feel what you feel. But this isn't the place to bring it. It's hostile as hell to bring it here.

[Dylan]

Martina,

I was specifically talking about celebrities. It started with Jet's comment about how much Sandy didn't deserve "this".

I don't know how much more clear I could have made that. Should I now put a disclaimer in all of my posts?

That turned to butch-femme couples.

And somewhere in there, someone (Superfemme?) made a "never" comment

Which led to me asking about queers (specifically queer women, but it could have been reversed to include queer men) who are married, but for whatever reason don't feel they can divorce sleeping with other partners. Because I don't believe in "all" or "never" statements. I see in this thread a number of people discussing infidelity in many forms. I was specifically talking about celebrities, and since I don't much care for celebrities, I tried to turn the convo to b-fers. SPECIFICALLY. Sorry I wasn't more clear in stating I was NOT talking about the entire history of women, or even women in general. I'll be sure to be more clear next time I decide to discuss celebrity cheaters.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Martina,

I was specifically talking about celebrities. It started with Jet's comment about how much Sandy didn't deserve "this".

I don't know how much more clear I could have made that. Should I now put a disclaimer in all of my posts?

That turned to butch-femme couples.

And somewhere in there, someone (Superfemme?) made a "never" comment

Which led to me asking about queers (specifically queer women, but it could have been reversed to include queer men) who are married, but for whatever reason don't feel they can divorce sleeping with other partners. Because I don't believe in "all" or "never" statements. I see in this thread a number of people discussing infidelity in many forms. I was specifically talking about celebrities, and since I don't much care for celebrities, I tried to turn the convo to b-fers. SPECIFICALLY. Sorry I wasn't more clear in stating I was NOT talking about the entire history of women, or even women in general. I'll be sure to be more clear next time I decide to discuss celebrity cheaters.


Dylan

Oh, I don't know. Where on EARTH did I come up with that?
Because you just feed me the material Rev., I don't have to make a THING up.

[SuperFemme]

p.s. Dylan you are right about sleeping with others while legally separated. Texas and six other states don't even ALLOW legal separation. Who knew? See, I learned something. It has to be whittled down to state law really on a *legal* basis. On a *moral* basis? That is between the couple I guess but technically it IS adultery. So thanks, because I had no idea.

[AtLast]

Legal vs. moral, very different concepts. And I'm thinking about personal moral vs. public moral.... dictates, conditioning, power dynamics and money..... on and on.....

There is no way I can put every single person that is unfaithful into one specific category. Nor can I personally define what is morally right for anyone else but myself. Hummm.. actually, the term moral doesn't sit well with me anyway. And I prefer legal sanctions about marriage (straight or queer) to encoumpass no-fault divorce. I have yet to see a divorce in which fault cannot be found with both partners in some way. Sure, there are things like cheating (if partners have an agreement to be sexually mongamous) and/or abusive trump most fault variables, but I am happy that many states have moved beyond fault which has been really based upon moral issues for dissolution of marriage. There are many other variables such as children to deal with. Many of us do own property together and have set-up retirement plans together.

Along with the right to marry legally, comes all the responsibilities of marriage and divorce.

I am just not OK with someone being sexual with someone else and being with me. However, I am very clear about this at the start and want this honesty returned. Sometimes we just have things that are deal-breakers.

I'm just glad I have developed some clarity about what I can accept and not accept and an understanding that all of us are just different in these matters.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Riggggghhhhhhhht

'Cuz butches and femmes nevvvvvvvvvvvvver have heterosexist norms placed on them

I mean, butches are neeevvvvvvvvver equated to men

and femmes are neeeevvvvvvvvvvvver expected to maintain straight ideals of femininity

We should start a thread about it, 'cuz I don't think there's evvvvver been a thread about it


I Must Be Outta My Gourd,
Dylan

P.S. Thanks for the butch-femme primer

Yes butches are equated to men all the time. I don't see men or butches being held to higher standards. I see the exact opposite when it comes to men. Women are held to much higher standards and there is lots of violence against women when they have cheated or perceived to have cheated, something that can happen to men but doesn't nearly as often. Boys will be boys may be a stereotype but it is also a major way of excusing behavior.

As to butch femme communities, I think if a butch, FTM, person of masculine persuasion is cheated on they get the same sympathy and sense of outrage as when it happens to a femme. I do not see butches being held to higher standards when it comes to cheating, relationships, etc. There are of course instances of friends taking sides, etc which happens in any community.

As to celebrities, I don't much care. I didn't think you did either, but you keep bringing them up.

Oh and as to my little "tutorial" yeah most butches and femmes are women. When you keep talking about how bad men have it and keep ignoring what women have to say here and in other discussions it's pretty offensive to some of us.

Cheating is cheating no matter which gender does it.

[BullDog]

I am very monogamous and definitely feel I am wired that way. I do think though there are probably some unrealistic expectations that go along with it for many people. However, I don't see how people who cheat or have a problem with honesty or communication would be successful at poly relationships either. You have to be honest and communicate well to have successful poly relationships as much or more than with a successful monogamous one because there are more individuals or potentially more individuals involved.